Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[pvraman]

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Smt HH Ji,

Discrimination must stop at the level of mutts and religious institutions that promote segregation and discrimination.

While segregation is their private affair, discrimination is a public affair. As long as Mutts functions as a public institution, they are responsible. But if they are private, you can not impose any thing, except ignoring them totally.

Regards

 

[pvraman]

Smt HH Ji,

Perfectly said. Then why is there a monopoly in admission to vedic schools?

Does not Arya Samaj admit everybody?

 

[Nara]

I wish all communities raise their standard so that caste based discrimination disappears slowly.

Caste based discrimination will end when caste ends, never otherwise. Caste/community type thinking, blaming others, feelings of victimhood, these will unfortunately delay that day. Segregation cannot be benign.

 

[pvraman]

Smt HH Ji,

You overlook that the ancient brahmanas were not wealthy; and anyone can live life like an ancient brahmana even today. But purohits working in small temples along the street corners, also have dreams of a 'good life' now. So, its a case of a society becoming materialistic on the whole. And yes, truly, nobody lives for the society anymore.

We do not forget that ancient Brahmnana's were supported by society and their family were looked up respectfully for their simplistic nature. Today, it is not possible and will be made to beg. (Today money is given more respect). We can remember Devayani D/o Shukrachariyar, how she was abused by the kings daughter. Perhaps it started in ancient times and Vedic Brahmana realized that they had to support themselves.

Regards

 

[Nara]

In the natural process, if caste system is getting erased in the future, we welcome it. Only if we force something, it will have opposite reaction.

So what can we all do to promote this natural process? What can we do to not slow down this natural process?

One answer is for each community (i.e. caste) to feel more proud of being a member of humanity rather than a member of a particular community (i.e. caste). Another thing that can be done is to be an example to other communities (i.e. caste), in stead of thinking that is someone else is a casteist, it is alright for me to be a casteist as well.

 

[RVR]

Smt HH Ji,



We do not forget that ancient Brahmnana's were supported by society and their family were looked up respectfully for their simplistic nature. Today, it is not possible and will be made to beg. (Today money is given more respect). We can remember Devayani D/o Shukrachariyar, how she was abused by the kings daughter. Perhaps it started in ancient times and Vedic Brahmana realized that they had to support themselves.

Regards

In the village, no body bothered about money. In my younger days, when we get fruits and vegetables from our farm, my mother is use to distribute it immediately to all the community members freely. Rich use to finance the poor and poor use to support the rich physically.

There was no cell phone those days. If I do some mischief during my school days, before reaching home my father would have got the information and will be waiting to punish me.

Unfortunately that life will never come back. They are only sweet memories.

All the best

 

[pvraman]

Smt HH Ji,

If targetting brahmins was just a political ploy to get votes, then people wud not have supported such movements in the past.

People!!, will support any movement as long as they get material benefit. We have a big support to DMK from all the quarters. Do you think its because of good governance or ideology? Olden days the history is recorded and how it was achieved. I do not say that all brahmins are innocent. But I do say that there are bad elements in every community.

Regards

 

[happyhindu]

Like me, there are so many who does not uphold that. If they refuse to accept, it should be appreciated. In this modern world why one should care discriminatory scriptures.

Little type error there, and by "if they refuse to accept it...." I mean the bold words.

Regards

Yes i understood that its a typo with one word missing. Have therefore already replied in the previous post accordingly as:

[quoteNo sensible person in this world is upholding discriminatory scriptures. One does not need to specially appreciate brahmins or anyone if they are not upholding such scriptures.[/quote]

While segregation is their private affair, discrimination is a public affair. As long as Mutts functions as a public institution, they are responsible. But if they are private, you can not impose any thing, except ignoring them totally.

Aha , its not easy to define segregation and discrimination that easily sir. Private instiutions are not exempt from scrutiny. Infact, it wud be a good idea if all mutts voluntarily publish donations they have received from all patrons (including politicians). Nor can any institution that promotes caste discrimination be ignored.

Does not Arya Samaj admit everybody?

ofcourse they do. but what has this got to do with mutts that claim to represent the orthodoxy of hinduism?

We do not forget that ancient Brahmnana's were supported by society and their family were looked up respectfully for their simplistic nature.

Today, it is not possible and will be made to beg. (Today money is given more respect). We can remember Devayani D/o Shukrachariyar, how she was abused by the kings daughter. Perhaps it started in ancient times and Vedic Brahmana realized that they had to support themselves.

Even in the past, brahmins moved to other professions and no explanations were / are needed for doing so. If you want to live a simple spiritual life, nobody is stopping you. There have always been brahmins living life that way...Point out a few examples as excuses to feel "victimized" or to portray a 'forced to do so" stand can come across as excuses. The society not supporting is a plain excuse for those who actually want to live a material life....i think the society is well patronizing priests...

 

[pvraman]

Smt HH Ji,

Today, its bcoz of the open economy and shift in focus towards betterment of living standards that has buried such ideologies.

I would say, they found better alternative to get votes. Now they get double treat, freebie commissions and votes. . They are too busy in making money they have no time to pay attention to brahmin!.

Regards

 

[happyhindu]

People!!, will support any movement as long as they get material benefit. We have a big support to DMK from all the quarters. Do you think its because of good governance or ideology? Olden days the history is recorded and how it was achieved. I do not say that all brahmins are innocent. But I do say that there are bad elements in every community.

You overlook that mass support came from people who had no material benefits to get.

There are good and bad elements in every community.

In the past, the dk used 'ideology'. Now people want performance, since they have already move ahead in life.

Its only the 'dalits' today, who wants the 'ideology' to address them at the level of religious institutions.

 

[pvraman]

Smt HH Ji

However, to the dalits, its a case of double whammy - ill treatment from all hindus plus lack of capital to build a live on.

No matter how much money they get, some 'dalit' sections do not use it to improve their own lives. Instead they fund movements. Its the ideology that needs to be addressed. Scriptural basis for their birth condemnation must go and they must be allowed to be equals in hinduism.

yes, Mayawati, Meera Kumar..... I can name a few who lives for ideology. Our Beloved Dalit Panther are also busy fighting for Srilankan Tamils. What more one can ask?

Regards

 

[happyhindu]

Smt HH Ji,


I would say, they found better alternative to get votes. Now they get double treat, freebie commissions and votes. . They are too busy in making money they have no time to pay attention to brahmin!.

Regards

Nobody is interested in paying attention to brahmins at the political platform these days except 'dalits'....

You can keep blaming corruption, politicians, etc.

If you could try to take a look at corrupt practices within hindusim, you can get a feel of how things (seeming seperate) are actually inter-related, and get reflected in the society....

 

[happyhindu]

Smt HH Ji


yes, Mayawati, Meera Kumar..... I can name a few who lives for ideology. Our Beloved Dalit Panther are also busy fighting for Srilankan Tamils. What more one can ask?

Regards

you can keep playing the blame game pvr....just for once, can you look within the whole brahmanical system and then talk...

if you look at seperatist movements, you will get an idea of things are connected - the caste system is not benign - and it all begins with the institutions that promote 'spiritual' segregative ideologies.

as for politicians, do not forget that brahmins (of mutts) uphold birth based discrimination - when they have provided caste as fodder for a political platform, why blame exploitative politicians ALONE who make hay out of sunshine..

 

[nachi naga]

re

curious,

'I know I will be scolded for asking that clarification. I understand from your response it is strictly a private affair. Public need not care about it.'

I am sorry if my replies came across as scolding.No,sir.My intent is,many methodologies are vailable for the pupose of propagating Advaitham.That sir,is really a private matter for a target audience.All of us cannot study and become PHD.Only a select acheive it.

'Not me. I don’t want to go there. I have no clue on these B and NBs classification. I like to remain that way. Perhaps, I will be happier that way. But, I like to learn Hinduism. I just don’t want to blindly shake my head to masses telling me what to do even though they don’t have clue about what they are telling me. The answer from the masses is it is been followed for several years. That answer is not enough for me.'

B & NB are just a way of categorising people just as Indian as a nationality,but within Indians we further classify as North Indian,East Indian,West Indian,South Indian,North East Indian,North West Indian and so on..,and are instructed to follow some traditional method of worship,to attain moksham.Attaining moksham is purely a spiritual matter,for every sanathana dharma of the world.By asking questions only ,one becomes knowledgeable.

Our scriptures are full of such question & answere,dialogues,for the true aspirant,in vedic culture.One must have the patience & faith,either to take initiative individually or align with bonafide gurus,from whichever sampradayam,one is comfortable with.Just like learning or studying in a school,is totally left to an individual's family,for gaining material comfort's,so is spiritual comfort,an independent or collective effort of a community of people.

The solution for all this,think India and be Indian.Religious leanings are simply private matter of religious leaders.Let not politcal parties not involve about reforms in that domain and similiarly religious leaders should harmonise within religious domain only,unless and untill,advice sought for.

nachi naga.

 

[happyhindu]

This thread has gone a long way.

Now am interested in responses from all those who read this.

What is the best way to make so-called 'harijans' or 'dalits' feel that they are equals within the hindu religion?

By equals, i mean, equal to the rest of the hindus. And specifically, because, they want to be priests / purohits.

Please restrict this discussion to the religious, scriptural or spiritual level alone.

No politics, discussion abt material life, etc - nothing apart from religion alone.

All suggestions, no matter, how haywire, utopian or trivial, etc, are welcome.

Thanks in advance to all responses.

 

[renuka]

Dear Smt Renuka Ji,


Can you please enlighten me, if the 3 modes take precedence over one another under what circumstances?

How
1) Genetics,
2) Environment
3) Society
4) Profession

Influences it. If the above has any effect on these 3 modes?

Thanks

Dear PVRamanJi,
sorry for the late response.I had to look up the Bhagavad Gita again before i could reply to you.
I think you are already aware that there are 3 kinds of worship,3 kinds of austerity, 3 kinds of gifts, 3 kinds of food preferences.

Now coming to your question on influences:

• genetics-- in humans it is a little bit difficult to classify anyone into Sattva, Rajas and Tamas purely based on genes/genetics becos humans are of the same species.in the animal kingdoms it is very evident.the herbivours are genetically more docile than the carnivorous animals.human babies are all born helpless and docile.its during his growing years his behavioural pattern takes shape.Humans are less instinct based when compared to animals.In humans the mind influences our nature.There is a saying that goes "All babies are born divine, it we that make them Human"

• Environment plays a very important role in shaping the mental make up of a person.a child growing up in a wild abusive household will be more naturally inclined to repeat the same type of behaviour in teenage years and in adult hood.

Similarly those from homes which are more calm, composed, loving and religious will most likely be like like their parents.So environment can influence our Guna.
but even then there are exceptions, some families are so sattva in behaviour and might produce children in the opposite end of the spectrum.
i will touching on this in the next line.

• Society--- also to a certain extent also influences our mental make up. more for those who are fickle minded and easily influenced.

for example the best of parents might have a child who is totally in the other end of the spectrum maybe becos the child was not keeping with good company in school or even online.

• Proffesion-- now coming to this. most people think those who are educated highly are of a better charecter.I can safely bet that is not necessarily true.

for example my proffesion --- a doctor.
people call it noble proffesion--- i feel not really.
all of us are paid a salary or earn a salary.
no one is losing out anything to serve patients.
a doctor does not put his life at stake for others unlike a soldier.

they are many doctors who do abortions/sell organs/sell psychtropic drugs etc for monetary gain.
Education obviuosly did not help them.
on the other hand i have seen poor uneducated people who have good charecter and will not even take one cent which is not due to them.
any proffesion is noble provided done with a pure heart.

• last but not the least I want to add on Karma.Karma i feel heavily influences our present birth guna.I fully cannot explain the mode of action but it looks as if a certain portion of our Sanchita Karma is activated for a specific period of time in our current life.

• Gunas also change and are not neccasarily fixed.A person of a Tamas nature might become more Rajas or Sattva when there is a strong external influence or an inner awakening.Didnt Ratnakara become Valmiki?

i hope i answered your questions.
renu

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH ji,
I have problem in internet connection and wil b responding from 17th jan onwards.till such time i manage with my mobile phone.

Back to your last post.

Smt HH JI,

Please be more specific so that readers can come up with their suggestions.

on which temples they want to become priests- siva or vishnu temples or it does not matter any as long as they become priests.

Scriptural sanction means what?

Amendment in what are all the scriptures.

Who can do, on what authority?

I am against suggesting change in scriptures as it will look phony and the brahmins will be looked as opportunists and they will loose their remaining credibility. That will make the dalit priest also phony.

I feel i made clear my opinion on their improvement.
I have nothing more to say in this thread about Dalits..

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH ji,
I have problem in internet connection and wil b responding from 17th jan onwards.till such time i manage with my mobile phone.

Back to your last post.

Smt HH JI,

Please be more specific so that readers can come up with their suggestions.

on which temples they want to become priests- siva or vishnu temples or it does not matter any as long as they become priests.

Scriptural sanction means what?

Amendment in what are all the scriptures.

Who can do, on what authority?

I am against suggesting change in scriptures as it will look phony and the brahmins will be looked as opportunists and they will loose their remaining credibility. That will make the dalit priest also phony.

I feel i made clear my opinion on their improvement.
I have nothing more to say in this thread about Dalits..

 

[pvraman]

Dear Renu ji,
Many thanks for your detailed Reply. It will interesting to discuss further. However i have a bad net connection. I shall continue from 17th after i go back to Jkt.
Iniya pongal nal vaalthukkal.
Terimakasih.

 

[happyhindu]

Please be more specific so that readers can come up with their suggestions.

on which temples they want to become priests- siva or vishnu temples or it does not matter any as long as they become priests.

All temples, except temples where priesthood is already fixed as heredity.

Scriptural sanction means what?

Amendment in what are all the scriptures.

Scriptural sanction means
a) Get religious institutions to declare offensive portions of scriptures, esp some certain law portions of smrithis, as null and void and inapplicable in this yuga.
b) Put the practice of equality into effect, by opening admissions in vedic schools to all, irrespective of caste.

Who can do, on what authority?

'Authority' means all established hindu institutions that have decided to take on the role of issuing directives on how others must live. To decide if an institution is a valid established institution (which can considered an 'authority'), let there be an official enquiry into how the institutions got established.

I am against suggesting change in scriptures as it will look phony and the brahmins will be looked as opportunists and they will loose their remaining credibility. That will make the dalit priest also phony.

The more there is research into how institutions got established, the more interpolated stuff keeps coming up to public notice, credibility will keep decreasing (it already has i think in the social scenario).

I feel i made clear my opinion on their improvement.
I have nothing more to say in this thread about Dalits..

Yes, you need not be bothered. Until a few months back, i used to think why do all the leftist cranks in the country dislike the shankaracharyas - now i am able to understand why. What is considered 'holy' to one is 'injustice' to another. Lack of leadership in the present day brahmanical circles can lead to more complicated scenarios.

Regards.

 

[RVR]

Ms Happy Hindu

My replies are in blue.

This thread has gone a long way.

Now am interested in responses from all those who read this.

What is the best way to make so-called 'harijans' or 'dalits' feel that they are equals within the hindu religion?

First and foremost, daliths should have real leaders who are selfless, not after political power or monitory power both at national and local levels.I wish a person of Mahatma Gandhi calibre has to evolve among daliths who can evolve the priorities affecting the community clearly and set goals to remove it over a definite period of time.

By equals, i mean, equal to the rest of the hindus. And specifically, because, they want to be priests / purohits.

You are only making this issue as top most priority. Let the leader whom I suggested earlier come out with the priority. May be he can discuss with intellectuals within his community as well as other communities and evolve the priorities. Let us not get prejudiced on priorities.

Please restrict this discussion to the religious, scriptural or spiritual level alone.

No politics, discussion abt material life, etc - nothing apart from religion alone.

All suggestions, no matter, how haywire, utopian or trivial, etc, are welcome.

Let us focus on development as the top most priority. Personally I have handled projects for TAHDCO

TAHDCO

for almost five years and I have personal experience about the pit falls. I am willing to help in overcoming the pitfalls and capture all the opportunities available on paper from all the Governments. Effective implementation of the schemes is the need of the hour. Let us not bother about politics and other matters.

Thanks in advance to all responses.

All the best

 

[renuka]

Dear Happy Hindu,

till date i have not seen the word Dalit or untouchable used in the scriptures.
Varnas are 4 in number.
Brahmana
Kshatriya
Vaishya
Sudra
none of these four mean Dalit.

The only time i ever saw the word Dalit is in Madhuraashtakam.

Dalitam Madhuram Phalitam Maduram
Madhuraadhipate Akhilam Madhuram

the meaning here does not denote any caste either.

I really dont know of any text where the word Dalit is used.
Maybe we are all arguing about a division(dalit) which was not there to start with.
correct me if wrong.

 

[RVR]

Dear Happy Hindu,

till date i have not seen the word Dalit or untouchable used in the scriptures.
Varnas are 4 in number.
Brahmana
Kshatriya
Vaishya
Sudra
none of these four mean Dalit.

The only time i ever saw the word Dalit is in Madhuraashtakam.

Dalitam Madhuram Phalitam Maduram
Madhuraadhipate Akhilam Madhuram

the meaning here does not denote any caste either.

I really dont know of any text where the word Dalit is used.
Maybe we are all arguing about a division(dalit) which was not there to start with.
correct me if wrong.

Dr Renuka

You are 100% correct. There is no fifth varna which Rajaji said when he admitted the so called untouchables in to the temple.

At best they can be grouped along with sudras as per varna theory.

Mahatma Gandhi called them as `Harijans' meaning children of Lord Vishnu.

Official government classification is Scheduled castes and Tribes.

The term `dalith' is a recent invention after the emergence of Bahujan Samaj Party in Indian politics.

All the best

 

[venkatpasupathy]

Renukaji,
According to some sources in the internet, the word Dalit is referred to a person outside the four varnas. The word dalit has been defined differently by different people. For dalits the word is qualitatively different. The word was popluarised by Dalit panther movement. The Dalit Panther Movement rejected Gandhiji's term "harijan". Venkat

 

[renuka]

Renukaji,
According to some sources in the internet, the word Dalit is referred to a person outside the four varnas. The word dalit has been defined differently by different people. For dalits the word is qualitatively different. The word was popluarised by Dalit panther movement. The Dalit Panther Movement rejected Gandhiji's term "harijan". Venkat

This is what I wanted to hear and you brought it out.

This shows that the division or terminology called Dalits were not created by the scriptures .

So why should the scriptures and the Hindu religion be blamed for a crime It did not commit?

I just wish the focus of the Dalit/Caste problems can be shifted from a religious problem to a social problem.

Its actually a social problem and not a religious problem.

We Hindus should start addressing this problem on social grounds and stop blaming our religion for this man made terminology.

Finding fault with one's own religion is only breeding the ground for invasion of pathological organisms which may just add fuel to fire and we will be seeing more leaving Hindusim.

renu