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Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

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This forum on the caste system has attracted valuable contributions from eminent personalities.Rig Veda, where the four varnas are mentioned, had always been the starting point for all the accusations that follow. I had said in an earlier post in a different forum that this Rik, read with what preceeds and follows, has opossibly a far more different meaning than what we try to interpret as Brahma, Kshatriya, Vaisya and Sudra Varnas. In a society, one requires four types of professionals, the learners and teachers, the protectors and rulers,the businessmen and sustainers and finally the cultivators and people who do all the other physical odd jobs. This is true of all societies, all over the world, and all the time.All of them require intergroup support for harmonious living in a society. At the same time, they require harmonious blending of body and mind for a healthy living.Thus, a Brahmana, who does very little physical activity,is symbolised by the mananam and uchchadanam done by his mukham, the intonations, pronounciations, Jadai,Ganam etc. Since this alone will not be enough physical exercise, heis adviced various yogas. Due to male chauvanism, when the yogas were discouraged for the ladies ( imagine Urdhwamahathandavam for Parvati?), Bharatamuni brought in the culture of Mudras anbd the dances for them.Since they dont do much exercise, frugal food was adviced for them and the need for material comfort was also less.Thus, the mouth was symbolic of the Brahmins or vice se versa.
You require a strong pair of arms to protect your clan and hence the arms represent the Kshatriyas. Similarly, the group who feed you and sustain you so that you can perperform your job unhindered, are called Vaisyas.The pair of legs are among the most important part of the body and the cough muscles are called the second heart.
Since they do so much physical work, none of the other supplementary exercises prescribed for them is necessary for these, called Sudras, and they are exempted from them.It is a wrong later misinterpretation that they are prevented from performing the duties prescribed forthe other three varnas.
They were freely exchangeable and not confined to birth only. We have innumerable instances of persons born in one varna, becoming a rishi in another varna. We have instances of Anulomam and pratilomam.Pratilomam was generally discouraged apparently because the 24th Y and X chromosome, which determines the gender is present only in the male and hence, they did not want a downgrading of the varna at the time of birth!
i will continue in my next posting.
Regardsd to all.
Ramanathan.
 
Dr Ramanathan Sir,

Your article in interesting and thought provoking. Please continue and enlighten us further

All the best
 
This forum on the caste system has attracted valuable contributions from eminent personalities.Rig Veda, where the four varnas are mentioned, had always been the starting point for all the accusations that follow. I had said in an earlier post in a different forum that this Rik, read with what preceeds and follows, has opossibly a far more different meaning than what we try to interpret as Brahma, Kshatriya, Vaisya and Sudra Varnas. In a society, one requires four types of professionals, the learners and teachers, the protectors and rulers,the businessmen and sustainers and finally the cultivators and people who do all the other physical odd jobs. This is true of all societies, all over the world, and all the time.All of them require intergroup support for harmonious living in a society. At the same time, they require harmonious blending of body and mind for a healthy living.Thus, a Brahmana, who does very little physical activity,is symbolised by the mananam and uchchadanam done by his mukham, the intonations, pronounciations, Jadai,Ganam etc. Since this alone will not be enough physical exercise, heis adviced various yogas. Due to male chauvanism, when the yogas were discouraged for the ladies ( imagine Urdhwamahathandavam for Parvati?), Bharatamuni brought in the culture of Mudras anbd the dances for them.Since they dont do much exercise, frugal food was adviced for them and the need for material comfort was also less.Thus, the mouth was symbolic of the Brahmins or vice se versa.
You require a strong pair of arms to protect your clan and hence the arms represent the Kshatriyas. Similarly, the group who feed you and sustain you so that you can perperform your job unhindered, are called Vaisyas.The pair of legs are among the most important part of the body and the cough muscles are called the second heart.
Since they do so much physical work, none of the other supplementary exercises prescribed for them is necessary for these, called Sudras, and they are exempted from them.It is a wrong later misinterpretation that they are prevented from performing the duties prescribed forthe other three varnas.
They were freely exchangeable and not confined to birth only. We have innumerable instances of persons born in one varna, becoming a rishi in another varna. We have instances of Anulomam and pratilomam.Pratilomam was generally discouraged apparently because the 24th Y and X chromosome, which determines the gender is present only in the male and hence, they did not want a downgrading of the varna at the time of birth!
i will continue in my next posting.
Regardsd to all.
Ramanathan.

Dear Dr Ramanathan Ji,
thank you very much for your timely and valueble contribution.
 
Respectable Sri.Dr.S. Ramanathan,

"In a society, one requires four types of professionals, the learners and teachers, the protectors and rulers,the businessmen and sustainers and finally the cultivators and people who do all the other physical odd jobs. This is true of all societies, all over the world, and all the time."

Respectable Sir,

I agree with your quoted assertions. But I am not able to agree that each varna is represented by different persons. Just one person would follow brahma, kshtriya and vaisya varnas. When you say that the varna system is good for all the societies in the world, it can be only seen as I interpreted. Every person has certain skills. No matter how menial the job maybe, there is always some skill is involved; such skills are passed only while performing such jobs. A non-practical person would not know about the techniques. He may talk in length about academics of the job; but the actual job would be taught by the person who is doing the job physically.

For example, let us consider the task of wiping the backside of a vulnerable patient. Do you think there is any special technique involved to perform such a job? Who do you think would know the technique well, if there is one? Would it be the person who perform of the task or a brahmin who spends his time learning this and that? Has any brahmin developed a theory backed up by evidence to direct and regulate the art of backside wiping? Kindly don't be put-off by my selection of example, please. Thank you.

Cheers!
 
Shri. Raghy

Respectable Sri.Dr.S. Ramanathan,

"In a society, one requires four types of professionals, the learners and teachers, the protectors and rulers,the businessmen and sustainers and finally the cultivators and people who do all the other physical odd jobs. This is true of all societies, all over the world, and all the time."

Respectable Sir,

I agree with your quoted assertions. But I am not able to agree that each varna is represented by different persons. Just one person would follow brahma, kshtriya and vaisya varnas. When you say that the varna system is good for all the societies in the world, it can be only seen as I interpreted. Every person has certain skills. No matter how menial the job maybe, there is always some skill is involved; such skills are passed only while performing such jobs. A non-practical person would not know about the techniques. He may talk in length about academics of the job; but the actual job would be taught by the person who is doing the job physically.

For example, let us consider the task of wiping the backside of a vulnerable patient. Do you think there is any special technique involved to perform such a job? Who do you think would know the technique well, if there is one? Would it be the person who perform of the task or a brahmin who spends his time learning this and that? Has any brahmin developed a theory backed up by evidence to direct and regulate the art of backside wiping? Kindly don't be put-off by my selection of example, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

You do have a knack of trivializing the issues with your examples. But if you are saying "backside wiping" is a art, I agree with you. Ask a Caucasian to use water or an Indian in India to use paper towels and they will make a mess of it and "themselves" :yuck:
 
Sri.Anand,

"You do have a knack of trivializing the issues with your examples. But if you are saying "backside wiping" is a art, I agree with you. Ask a Caucasian to use water or an Indian in India to use paper towels and they will make a mess of it and "themselves""

If you do not understand or if you do not know the seriousness of the topic, kindly stay away from the discussions, please. I chose that topic for a very good reason. I wrote there 'wiping the back side of a vulnerable patient'. Sir, You may not undrerstand.

Cheers!
 
Dear Raghy,
You are one real funny guy.
I can wait to see the replies you will receive.

renu

Sow.Sri.Renukakarthikayan,

I chose that task for a very good reason. You must have read few articles on that issue; don't you know how critical it is, particularly for patients with IDC and/or pressure sores at that site? I am a simple guy with a simple mind. I am not worried about the replies I may receive.

Cheers!
 
Sri.Anand,

My reply to you seems snappy. I am sorry, I did not mean to be that snappy. I was put off when I read "You do have a knack of trivializing the issues with your examples.". No hard feelings, please. The issue I wrote is not a trivial issue at all. Yes, you are right if you say I choose unexpected examples. We shall give bit more time for Dr.S.Ramanathan. after that, I am more than happy to explain the issue.

Cheers!
 
Sow.Sri.Renukakarthikayan,

I chose that task for a very good reason. You must have read few articles on that issue; don't you know how critical it is, particularly for patients with IDC and/or pressure sores at that site? I am a simple guy with a simple mind. I am not worried about the replies I may receive.

Cheers!
Dear RaghyJi,
Dont get me wrong please.I didnt mean your choice of subject was funny.
I am sorry if my reply made you feel that way.
Please accept my apologies.
renu
 
Dear RaghyJi,
Dont get me wrong please.I didnt mean your choice of subject was funny.
I am sorry if my reply made you feel that way.
Please accept my apologies.
renu

Sow.Sri.Renukakarthikayan,

Why do you need to apologise? No need for that, please. I am like 'Tenali Raman'. Legend has it, once when the king asked the court 'when does a man get satisfaction and pleasure?', Tenali Raman relpied 'when he emptied his bladder in the morning!' Naturally the king was not too impressed....
May be Anand is right; I seem to pick such ridiculous examples. (it certainly seems like I snapped at him..).

Cheers!
 
Shri. Raghy

Sri.Anand,

My reply to you seems snappy. I am sorry, I did not mean to be that snappy. I was put off when I read "You do have a knack of trivializing the issues with your examples.". No hard feelings, please. The issue I wrote is not a trivial issue at all. Yes, you are right if you say I choose unexpected examples. We shall give bit more time for Dr.S.Ramanathan. after that, I am more than happy to explain the issue.

Cheers!

No problem. I said trivializing also in context of associating pornography with Sanskrit in another thread. There is nothing personal against you. As long as we don't take offence to each other personally, it is all fine.

Thanks
 
Management Guru C.K.Prahlad is recommending core competence theory. If you extend the theory from organisations to individuals, it is definitely true that each job has a speciality which only a competent person can do it better.

In my factory, we always emphasis on a particular skill development as compared to multiple skill development. Each person develops a particular skill which he alone can do better with optimum resources. The so called `sakala kala vallavan' is not suitable for a production job and may be suitable for maintenance type job which requires multiple skills. Normally a person based on his attitude and skill is put maximum in one or two jobs only. It improves productivity, quality and cost effectiveness in the organisation. However it also develops over dependence on that particular person and if he is absent, we find it very difficult to replace.

Coming to Sri Raghy's example, that person is very much important like any other person in the organisation. It reminds of a song in Rajni's `Sivaji' movie that if a barber or washermen or toilet cleaner stops his work, the place will become rotten.

I think all of us should respect all the work and should not feel that a particular work will not bring dignity. Only if dignity mentality develops, problems will crop up.

All the best
 
re

Dear all posters,please download only if you wish to read my replies,totally selected selectively from various posters in the thread.This is long ,please think and do the right action.

nachi naga.
 

Attachments

I have specifically mentioned that Varnas are freely exchangeable and an ordinary citizen of one varna has become a rishi of another varna and of Anulomam and Pratilomam existing. The aberration has taken place when Varna and the so called caste system attributed to Manusmruti are intertwined and interpreted. For this, it is necessary to have a little background.
There are different references to Manu., initially only four Manus created by Brahma etc. The reference to Vaivaswata Manu is from Matsyapurana, which lists 14 Manus, of whom the period of 6 are over and the present rule is of Vaiswatamanu, the 7th.. All the smritisof Manu are attributed to this Manu. There are two aspects to be remembered in this context.
1.All puranas are of a much later date than Vedas, Upanishads and Itihasas. We all know the amount of deceipt, cheating, Kama, Kroda etc that existed even during the Mahabharata times; yet, three priceless jewels emerged from it, namely Bhagavat Gita, Vishnusahasranamam and Vuidura Neeti, which are valid for all time.
2. Manusmriti attained prominence and has been overly played upon selectively, merely because the Britishers happened to lay their hands on it and used it effectively to divide Hindu Society.There are also many other Smritis like Yagnavalkya smriti, which are little known and quoted.
A smriti is a book of law, valid for a particular time and situation and any number of amendments carried out, depending upon the need. For eg,meat eating has been recommended and decried for Brahmins, any number of times, depending upon the need of the occasion. Many of us may be aware that serving of meat is a MUST in Sraddha of a Kashmiri Pandit, irrespective of whether the Karta himself is a meat eater.
Many of us may also be aware that some corporate houses in Tamil Nadu had engaged Iyengars and Iyers as sweepers and toilet cleaners, out of sheer compunction of time in 1960s and they are doing an excellent job.
The so called Manusmriti is no longer relevant after the constitution of India has been enacted. What we have operative today is Babasaheb Ambedkar Smriti, which has been amended already 94 times in 56 years!
I shall follow with more in my next posting.
Regards ansd respects to all,
Ramanathan.
 
Dr. S. Ramanathan, anulomam and pratilomam have an inherent meaning in them. They suggest something by the words 'anu' and 'prati', don't you think?

Regards,
 
Shri nachi naga, it would be more convenient to all members, if you could post your comments directly, instead of an attachment. I have to log in just to read your comments.

Is it an indirect way of creating 'active members'? :)

Regards,
 
Dear Shri Ramanathan:

Greetings!

.....The aberration has taken place when Varna and the so called caste system attributed to Manusmruti are intertwined and interpreted.

[..]

2. Manusmriti attained prominence and has been overly played upon selectively, merely because the Britishers happened to lay their hands on it and used it effectively to divide Hindu Society.

The evidence do not seem to comport with this view that (i) Varna and caste, attributed to Manusmruti, are interpreted as the same or similar, and (ii) Manu gained in prominence in the hands of British.

Manu uses the word "Varna" almost always, with a spattering of the word Jati here and there. So, in the mind of Manu and in the minds of the great sages to whom Manu was giving his Smrithi some 2000 years ago thought of varna and caste in the same way. Let me cite verse #2 from chapter #1,

भगवन् सर्ववर्णानां यथावद् अनुपूर्वशः ।
अन्तरप्रभवानां च धर्मान् नो वक्तुम् अर्हसि ॥

'Deign, divine one, to declare to us precisely and in due order the sacred laws of each of the (four chief) castes (varna) and of the intermediate ones.

Therefore, as far as Manu and the sages to whom Manu was giving this Smrithi is concerned, Varna and the sub-varnas are just a different terminology for Jati.

Further, it is not accurate to say the Britishers gave prominence to Manu. Even the great reformer Bhagavat Ramanuja, not to mention other religious figures from 1000 years ago, says Manu is the foremost among Smrithees and its validity is superseded by nothing other than Shruti. According to him Manu's laws are sometimes bitter like medicine, but essential for the good health of societies.

Parimelazhagar's commentary, considered the best until recently, is full of references to Manu. He lived in the 13th century CE.


The so called Manusmriti is no longer relevant after the constitution of India has been enacted.

This, of course, is correct and with the exception of a sliver of orthodox and conservative brahmins nobody will say Manu is relevant today, let alone eternally. This is why I think it will be great for Brahmins to reject Manu in a formal way by the heads of Brahminical institutions. Nothing will be lost.

Cheers!
 
...Its actually a social problem and not a religious problem.

Dear Renu, Greetings!

I have heard a lot of people say that Hindu religion is not just a religion, but a way of life. If this is so, then this social problem is indeed a religious problem as well.

Anyway, there are a few other reasons why this is a religious problem as well.
  • Manu smrithi is a religious text and it derives validity from the Vedas
  • A significant part of the discrimination Dalits and other low status Shudras face is at the religious front; just a couple of months back Dalits faced violence when they tried to enter a Hindu temple -- even if they face discrimination in other religions, at least they are freely welcomed into their places of worship
  • Their very low status is justified on the basis of karma doctrine, the very foundation of Hindu religion

There is no way this problem can be solved without removing the religious justifications for their low status. If one wishes to protect Hinduism from invasion of pathological organisms, the first and foremost thing to do is to clean out the most virulent of pathogens, Varna/caste system.

Cheers!
 
Dear Happy Hindu,

till date i have not seen the word Dalit or untouchable used in the scriptures.
Varnas are 4 in number.
Brahmana
Kshatriya
Vaishya
Sudra
none of these four mean Dalit.

I really dont know of any text where the word Dalit is used.
Maybe we are all arguing about a division(dalit) which was not there to start with.
correct me if wrong.

This is what I wanted to hear and you brought it out.

This shows that the division or terminology called Dalits were not created by the scriptures .

So why should the scriptures and the Hindu religion be blamed for a crime It did not commit?

I just wish the focus of the Dalit/Caste problems can be shifted from a religious problem to a social problem.

Its actually a social problem and not a religious problem.

We Hindus should start addressing this problem on social grounds and stop blaming our religion for this man made terminology.

Finding fault with one's own religion is only breeding the ground for invasion of pathological organisms which may just add fuel to fire and we will be seeing more leaving Hindusim.

renu

Renu,

Am surprised that you do not know abt the caste system from the scriptural point of view (and looks like you have been misled in some of the early reply posts).

Dalit is a recent word, coined for Harijans, which too is a recent word given by Mahatma Gandhi to all those who fell outside the 4 varna system.

There is a section of population called parjanya who are not shudras or part of the 4-varna vedic society. They are outcastes or ones without a varna, called avarna (as opposed to savarna or people who come within the varna folds).

They include people who were made or considered outcaste due to either
a) occupation (like tanning, or menial jobs)
b) because they were born out of inter-varna unions (considered unacceptable by the smrithis). Example: Chandala are born from Brahmana mothers and Shudra fathers. Here is a list of inter-varna products: http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/tree/21/pplmanu.htm
c) as punishment for wrong doing (including eating forbidden foods).

I do not know if the avarna section would include the adivasis and tribals, but generally anyone who did not come within the savarna groups is an outcaste.

Of the outcastes, the favourite benchmark for lowliness seems to have been the Chandala, who happens to be mentioned by practically all major smrithis.

To give you an idea of untouchability stemming from the scriptures, take note of this:

The Gautama Smrithi says a shudra must use the cast-offs of the twice-born and eat their remnants (chapter 10. verse 58 and 59).

But the fate of the Chandala (not shudra, but outcaste) is far worse.

Chapter 15, Verse 24 of the Gautama Smrithi says that if a funeral offering is even seen by chandalas and dogs, it is blemished. So the mere look causes blemish. Well, this is what theethu is all about.

Anyways, this primer can give you a fair idea: Caste System in Hinduism by Dr. RK Lahiri, PhD

And these are good links:
a) caste system of kerala - Vijayvaani.com

b) History of the Indian caste system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do watch this without fail: YouTube - Adi Guru Shankaracharya confronts Chandala

Regards.
 
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re

Dear all posters,this is a long file to read selected selectively from different posters in this topic,please download,only if you wish to read.Sathajihva,Lord Vishnu Priyamvada,i am sorry,you feel this way.

nachi naga.
 

Attachments

Dear Happy Hindu,

Smirti is just a law.Laws has been written by man. Laws are subject to change to time , place and person.I am aware of caste in the Smirti point of view.I would not want to call a law ,scriptures.

I am also aware of the classification of varnas of anuloma/pratiloma type.
I myself am one born from a kshatriya father and brahmana mother.
I consider myself a hindu.
I dont attached any importance to my caste as it will not last.
It will perish when I perish.
I rather concentrate on God.

Even in a democratic with constitutional Monarchy government in Malaysia any law is subject to change if there is 2/3 majority in the parliament.

Laws are not eternal.Laws are perishable.
Smirti is not the word of God.Its is the word of man.
Did any avatar preach it?
Avatars never preached discrimination.
Only man preached discrimination.

For all practical purposes I rather concentrate on the word of God and not the word of man.
The 4 mahavakyas of the Vedas do not mention caste.
Ayam Atma Brahma
Prajnaanam Brahma
Aham Brahmaasmi
Tat Tvam Asi
 
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Dear Prof. Nara,
Thank you very much for your valuable observations. I cherish them.
I am not commenting on the Manusmriti itself but the fact that it was overplayed selectively by the British to divide the Hindu Society can not be wished away.
True, Acharya Ramanuja was one of the greatest Rationalists of his time. I do not want to use the word "Atheist" because of its limited wrong meaning it would convey. Throughout history, we may observe that science and search for truth have progressed only because of Rationalists. Even Adisankara had condemned ritualists, who get stuck to it without raising themselves to the higher plane of thought and living. (Ref; Bhajagovindam).In that respect, I admire you as a very knowledgeable Rationalist!. Only suggestion for a rationalist is that he should remember that ABSENCE OF PROOF IS NOT PROOF OF ABSENCE.
I have not read Parimelazhagar and hence I profess ignorance.

I am aware of a few places where Vedas are taught to children of all castes, without discrimination. Eg, Kunrakkudi, near Karaikudi, Sivaganga Dt.
I am also aware of a few temples, which are Kuladevatas of Brahmins but, where the priests are backward class or Dalits.The poojas are performed as per their convention for that temple and the brahmins accept the prasad with utmost respect. While such perfect coexistence and mutual regard and respect exist till today,occasional disturbances are created by introducing discard by politicians and vote catchers. What is required is to identify these people and throw them out as social discards.
Hinduism,(again a word introduced by the British), is broad and wide enough to accept all in their fold to do their respective assigned duties. It is in this respect that the Sanatana Dharma and Shanmada sthapanam of Adisankara stand out nonparallei.(Lord Subrahmanya, during that period, was a tribal God).
We have to look at history and religion together and not separately. The Agraharam villages came into existence in Bihar, as donation to Brahmins to preserve and propagate Hindu religion. This was done by Mauryas and Guptas, great empires of Vaisyas and not Kshatriyas. And, what a great religious kshetra Bihar had been! Birthplace of Sita devi, the holiest place for Hindus in Gaya to pay reverence to the departed souls,the holiest place for Buddhism who abhorred rituals and idol worship, the birthplace of the last and holiest of the Tirthankaras of Jains and, not the least of it, the birth place of Wahabism.The Sufis,who had an upper hand at that time, because of their closeness to the mysticism of the Hindus, were able to drive them away. They could not be accepted even among Deobandhis and were further driven out west towards Jhelum and found a place in the Himalayas in the Malakand region. Here, they could easily waylay the businessmen in the silk route crossing Jhelum and deprived them of their possessions.( But, we know how powerful Wahabis are today because of Saudi Official patronage). The traders had, therefore, to seek an alternate route. The Marwaris came to their rescue and created the alternate desert route via Ajmer, Jodhpur, Barmer and Jaisalmer, assuring the traders protection, ofcourse at a cost. This also enabled the Rajasthanis to buy peace with the Moghuls by an additional approach, A Rajasthani princess will be married to a moghul prince whose progeny will be the next ruling king of the Moghul empire. This was scrupulously kept upto the time of Aurangzeb. Aurengzeb revolted and assumed the power( and we all know what happened thereafter to the Empire.(Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan by James Todd in two volumes, first published 1832 and republished by Rupa & co, in 2005).Thus, we can not severe history and the rulers from the religion totally exclusively of each other. And, when there is a mix, aberrations do take place.
I shall reserve more information to my next posting.
Regards and respects to all who responded and who read.
Ramanathan.
 
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