Is the Community digging its own grave

[palindrome]

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As palindrome has already explained, to fully understand the context you have to provide precise citation. You may avoid a trip to Adayar library by visiting this site Sacred-Texts: Hinduism.

This particular site is also useful -- IntraText Digital Library

 

[palindrome]

Thanks KB!
I usually skip or or quickly scan some of the posts. It just pollutes the mind of a reader.

Many are hateful or have origins in hate and this forum provides an opportunity to regurgitate similar messages.

Actually there is a better American expression than messages for these posts - it is translated thus : குதிரை output LoL

Is there an American expression for ''burying the head in the sand'' (perhaps to avoid facing the prospect of justifying or protecting the legacy of prejudice) ? Or perhaps to avoid an alternative meaning to what one likes to think it is (as far as brahmanism goes like this)?

 

[sarang]

I prefer this approach to blunt posts insulting tambrams.

When karunanidhi says 'hindus are thieves', there is no point in trying to prove 'hindus are not thieves'. MK should be attacked in all possible ways (in words only, till the attacks become physical) because he is immune to any other sensible tolerant thoughts. I have no sympathy or reverence for brahmin haters and baiters. They are free to sell their wares in mags that will welcome them with glee and rewards. At least my sensibilities are spared.

Thanks KB!
I usually skip or or quickly scan some of the posts. It just pollutes the mind of a reader.

Many are hateful or have origins in hate and this forum provides an opportunity to regurgitate similar messages.

Actually there is a better American expression than messages for these posts - it is translated thus : குதிரை output LoL

 

[palindrome]

I prefer this approach to blunt posts insulting tambrams.

When karunanidhi says 'hindus are thieves', there is no point in trying to prove 'hindus are not thieves'. MK should be attacked in all possible ways (in words only, till the attacks become physical) because he is immune to any other sensible tolerant thoughts. I have no sympathy or reverence for brahmin haters and baiters. They are free to sell their wares in mags that will welcome them with glee and rewards. At least my sensibilities are spared.

According to Karunanaidhi, who are hindus?

 

[sarang]

Who cares? MK will change his definition and tune at the drop of a hat!

According to Karunanaidhi, who are hindus?

 

[vgane]

Coming to the OP of the thread, we have, as is our wont, taken this thread in a philosophical angle....

Where is the solution for the problem that Tambrahms are facing

It is unfortunate that this thread has become an outlet for Brahmin bashing

I never said that Tambrahms are superior

I had shared my anguish about the diminishing numbers in the community

I do not want my caste to further lose the numbers and be an insignificant player..I do not want Tambrahms becoming like the Parsis (who are almost extinct)...I do not want 25 years from now Government trying to revive the community numbers by giving sops...

I want my community to live peacefully & prosperously

Is this not a legitimate need?

How do we stem the rot?

I want a loukika response..

The youngsters are losing patience...

There was a suggestion to go back to the villages & start living the way of our grand parents..This may not be feasible in current circumstances.

But how do we at least maintain what we have (in terms of numbers, way of life, education & wealth)

How can we build energy & vigor in our Tambrahm way of life ..Our youngsters should be proud of the lineage & not be sinking

How do we provide succour to our unmarried Tambrahm men in their 30's & 40"s (as per some estimates they are more than 50K) so that they can lead a normal family life

Brahmin bashers, please get away from this thread

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear palindrome,

1) Kavasha (sorry I have been writing his name as gavasha) a panchama's story-please refer to Aitareya Brahmanam, panchika 2, Adhyay-3. It starts with rushayOvai sarasvathyAm sathramAsatha............. For the manthras starting with "prathEvathrAbrahmanE kAthurEthu.....made by Kavashan-he made 15 such mantras, please refer to Rg Veda 7th Ashtaka

2)kakshivanthan, please refer to Rg Veda Book1 Hymn 18.

3)JAnasruthi-please refer to Chandokya upanishad !V-2-1...5.

Hope this helps. Thank you.

 

[kunjuppu]

Brahmin bashers, please get away from this thread

i think it is rude for you to use epithets like this ok. you probably are a brahmin basher in many people's opinion here, and how would you feel if someone asks you to leave.

btw you have no right to ask anyone to leave any thread. there is a common decency and decorum here. ok?

also if you read some of the posts carefully, there ARE ideas. except maybe you do not like it.

why dont you come up with some fresh thought instead of regurgitating the same old anguish? that would be most welcome, i think.

 

[vgane]

i think it is rude for you to use epithets like this ok. you probably are a brahmin basher in many people's opinion here, and how would you feel if someone asks you to leave.

btw you have no right to ask anyone to leave any thread. there is a common decency and decorum here. ok?

also if you read some of the posts carefully, there ARE ideas. except maybe you do not like it.

why dont you come up with some fresh thought instead of regurgitating the same old anguish? that would be most welcome, i think.

Hope I have not used a forbidden word....I basically got annoyed as I was talking about the current issues that Tambrahms are facing... Some members of the group were diverging into a dialogue on the Vedic texts and Dharmashastras

I am trying to get the group to converge on the main topic of the thread

 

[kunjuppu]

Hope I have not used a forbidden word....I basically got annoyed as I was talking about the current issues that Tambrahms are facing... Some members of the group were diverging into a dialogue on the Vedic texts and Dharmashastras

I am trying to get the group to converge on the main topic of the thread

NP there. i am with you.

FOLKS, MOI AND VGANE BESEECH YOU TO CONVERGE ON THE MAIN TOPIC OF THE THREAD

PLEASE.

THANK YOU

THANK YO!!

 

[sangom]

Hope I have not used a forbidden word....I basically got annoyed as I was talking about the current issues that Tambrahms are facing... Some members of the group were diverging into a dialogue on the Vedic texts and Dharmashastras

I am trying to get the group to converge on the main topic of the thread

Dear Shri Gane,

The truth of the matter is tamil brahmins have started digging the grave for their "brAhmaNa" status, more than a century before the present times. A century of digging has made the grave large enough and what remains to be done perhaps, is the formal interment. My views on this point may be seen here.

There is therefore not much use in being "exercised" about it. Probably, the community must now implement the recommendations/suggestions given here; it may be necessary to adopt the ways of Taliban in this matter because almost all tabras will be extremely reluctant to throw away their hard-won material welfare just on simple moral appeal.

 

[Nara]

....Where is the solution for the problem that Tambrahms are facing

It is unfortunate that this thread has become an outlet for Brahmin bashing

[snip]

Brahmin bashers, please get away from this thread

vgane, I understand your angst, but there is no call for using the phrases I have highlighted above. As I said earlier, criticisms of Brahminism and Brahminist behavior is not Brahmin bashing.


Now, coming to your OP, if I may summarize your argument:

• the problem is Brahmin "community" is going extinct
• the cause for this problem is IC/IR marriages
• Brahmin "community" must find a way to prevent IC/IR marriages

Please see my post #24 -- for the reasons why preventing IC/IR is not all that practical. Let me also note that your suggestions made in response in post #25 are no more practical.

I submit to you, under the present socio-economic conditions in Tamil Nadu, there is simply no practical way to slow down the rate of IC/IR, let alone eliminate them. Given this reality, you and others who think like you need to think about what constitutes "traditional Brahminical way and the attendant cultural moorings". You have stated in post #25 that you "are not talking of caste purity". If this is so, my humble suggestion is, make a list of what you think are important Brahminical cultural ways, things that are important. Since I was raised in a Brahmin family I think I can start you off with the following:

• Birth and death rituals
• Upanayanam and a little bit of sandhyavandhanam as convenient
• Shloka recital in the evening, Vishnu Sahasranamam etc.
• May be a little Veda -- Rudram, Chamakam, Purusha Suktham, may be Taitreyam
• Carnatic music and Bharatha natyam
• Food habits

I think you can further expand on this rudimentary list. Vaagmi had the right idea, pick and choose what makes sense (though he seems to walk back from this ).

Raise the children along these principles, whether they are born out of IC/IR or SC/SR. The threat of your "community digging its own grave" comes not from IC/IR alone but also SC/SR parents not caring about the above list.

So, my humble suggestion is, if the children wish to have IC/IR, don't oppose it, don't threaten them with dire consequences, accept them with love. Get involved in their lives. Then, when time comes, teach your grandkids to follow the Brahminical ways listed above. Don't you think this is way more practical than trying to send the children to Brahmin-certified schools etc.

Please think about it, there is practically no downside, IC/IR is becoming more and more common as you have noted in your OP. Therefore there is no stigma anymore. Further, your children will be grateful that you have accepted their choice of IC/IR with love, and will be happy that you are involved in their lives, which will give you the opportunity to pass on what you see are important Brahminical ways and cultural moorings to the next generation. In as much as you care for these and not for caste purity there must be no objections.

Thank you ...

 

[palindrome]

Dear palindrome,

1) Kavasha (sorry I have been writing his name as gavasha) a panchama's story-please refer to Aitareya Brahmanam, panchika 2, Adhyay-3. It starts with rushayOvai sarasvathyAm sathramAsatha............. For the manthras starting with "prathEvathrAbrahmanE kAthurEthu.....made by Kavashan-he made 15 such mantras, please refer to Rg Veda 7th Ashtaka

The story of Kavasha is here and here (Haug's translation). During the period of entire Rig (samhitas), varna vyavastha was not in force. But after the period of Samhitas came the period of Brahmanas (texts); wherein elaborate sacrifices were created (Refer here and here). During this period (when Brahmanas (texts) were composed or created), there was intense struggle for the office of brahmana. At this time, the shudras were already a demarcated group (infact all thru the vedic samhita period also the asuras / dasyus were an inimical group, however they were not enslaved yet). In this particular story Kavasa was the son of a rishi from a shudra (slave) woman. He was a product of anuloma (brahman father, shudra mother).

When Kavasa sought to take part in the soma yagna (sacrifice), the other rishis (madhyamas) derided him. But Saraswati came to his rescue and declared Kavasa guiltless. Then Kavasha was accepted in the sacrifice. This merely shows shudras were unacceptable in yagnas. No less than a personage as Sarasvati herself had to declare him guiltless (due to his birth). Infact the other rishis had driven out Kavasa to die of thirst. At this time he 'saw' (composed) mantras (kindly note there is no evidence he was taught vedas, instead he composed mantras himself which became part of vedic brahmanas (texts)). Possibly since Kavasha was an achiever (composer plus killer of rakshasas), he made his place amongst brahmans. Sorry Vaagmi, this point does not show Shudras were taught vedas. Infact you said Gavasha was a panchama -- sorry but nowhere is Kavasha called a panchama.

2)kakshivanthan, please refer to Rg Veda Book1 Hymn 18.

It is here (Sanskrit version is here). Where is Kakshivant called a shudra ?

3)JAnasruthi-please refer to Chandokya upanishad !V-2-1...5.

Please can you provide the verse where he is called a shudra?

Sorry Vaagmi, it turns out jAnasruti was not a shudra; whilst Kavasha was born of a brahman father and shudra mother (he was part brahman yet had to face such troubles and ostracism). As for Kakshivant, nowhere is he called a shudra. Finally wrt Satyakama Jabala, there is no evidence he was a chandala (his father was unknown).

Thank you.

 

[sangom]

The story of Kavasha is here and here (Haug's translation). During the period of entire Rig (samhitas), varna vyavastha was not in force. But after the period of Samhitas came the period of Brahmanas (texts); wherein elaborate sacrifices were created (Refer here and here). During this period (when Brahmanas (texts) were composed or created), there was intense struggle for the office of brahmana. At this time, the shudras were already a demarcated group (infact all thru the vedic samhita period also the asuras / dasyus were an inimical group, however they were not enslaved yet). In this particular story Kavasa was the son of a rishi from a shudra (slave) woman. He was a product of anuloma (brahman father, shudra mother).

When Kavasa sought to take part in the soma yagna (sacrifice), the other rishis (madhyamas) derided him. But Saraswati came to his rescue and declared Kavasa guiltless. Then Kavasha was accepted in the sacrifice. This merely shows shudras were unacceptable in yagnas. No less than a personage as Sarasvati herself had to declare him guiltless (due to his birth). Infact the other rishis had driven out Kavasa to die of thirst. At this time he 'saw' (composed) mantras (kindly note there is no evidence he was taught vedas, instead he composed mantras himself which became part of vedic brahmanas (texts)). Possibly since Kavasha was an achiever (composer plus killer of rakshasas), he made his place amongst brahmans. Sorry Vaagmi, this point does not show Shudras were taught vedas. Infact you said Gavasha was a panchama -- sorry but nowhere is Kavasha called a panchama.


It is here (Sanskrit version is here). Where is Kakshivant called a shudra ?


Please can you provide the verse where he is called a shudra?

Sorry Vaagmi, it turns out jAnasruti was not a shudra; whilst Kavasha was born of a brahman father and shudra mother (he was part brahman yet had to face such troubles and ostracism). As for Kakshivant, nowhere is he called a shudra. Finally wrt Satyakama Jabala, there is no evidence he was a chandala (his father was unknown).

Thank you.

Possibly, there must be some rule (somewhere in our scriptures) which lays down that so long as a person is not expressly stated to be a brAhmaNa, the said person must be deemed to be a Shudra or panchama. Does anyone know about such a rule? Probably Shri Vaagmi does!!

 

[kunjuppu]

Possibly, there must be some rule (somewhere in our scriptures) which lays down that so long as a person is not expressly stated to be a brAhmaNa, the said person must be deemed to be a Shudra or panchama. Does anyone know about such a rule? Probably Shri Vaagmi does!!

yes. i agree. vaagmi appears to be well read.

 

[tbs]

hi
its my thought...even after homicides to judaism by hitler....judaism /jewish still survive...may be

in reform judaism.....same way may be some what reform brahnism will survive...some what

judaism/bhramanism moving like parallel in this world...hinduism will survive...brahmanism

may be in modified manner....may not be same old traditionaal orthodox system.....

 

[biswa]

How do we provide succour to our unmarried Tambrahm men in their 30's & 40"s (as per some estimates they are more than 50K) so that they can lead a normal family life

The answer to this is kind of obvious isnt it? Get them, their friends and families to find them mates, to the best of their ability. Since you cant force anybody to marry anybody else, they have to do their best to find a suitable mate among the pool of women they have access to. If people are picky, there is a chance they run the risk of not finding a mate or begetting progeny and hence becoming extinct.

Make yourself marketable and try to persuade a woman you fancy. What other answer is there?

 

[prasad1]

The answer to this is kind of obvious isnt it? Get them, their friends and families to find them mates, to the best of their ability. Since you cant force anybody to marry anybody else, they have to do their best to find a suitable mate among the pool of women they have access to. If people are picky, there is a chance they run the risk of not finding a mate or begetting progeny and hence becoming extinct.

Make yourself marketable and try to persuade a woman you fancy. What other answer is there?

Sir,
You are being very practical, logical, and realistic. That is not the way TB's act, you live in USA and you do not know the TN way. WE want it our way or else we will keep on crying. Wee-Weee.

 

[Asirvadam]

We are living in an age when Inter-Continental (I/C) and Inter-Racial (I/R) marriages have become common. Under such scenario the battle against Inter-Caste and Inter-Religious marriages is already lost. The I/C and I/R marriages pave the way for a Casteless and Religionless yet God-fearing society. I am able to see a bright future for the next generation, when wars based on Religion and conflicts based on caste would become extinct and things of the gory past.After my marriage, many of my christian relatives have mingled with the relatives of my Iyengar wife and many more marriages have been planned and arranged. We are going to raise our children as God-fearing, virtuous and righteous and not as christian or iyengar. We are sure we would set a good example and precedent for many to follow.

 

[Asirvadam]

hi
its my thought...even after homicides to judaism by hitler....judaism /jewish still survive...may be

in reform judaism.....same way may be some what reform brahnism will survive...some what

judaism/bhramanism moving like parallel in this world...hinduism will survive...brahmanism

may be in modified manner....may not be same old traditionaal orthodox system.....

Even the so-called-judaism does not live as it existed during its evolution. Judaism is strictly an English language lexicon. Moses, the prophet of the Jews, gave them Law received from God as is scripted in Torah. But the present day Jews follow not one bit of the law. They could not, due to circumstances, changing times and scenario. The jews are scattered, many of them in western countries, having adopted the western style of living. Even in Israel, what you will find is not reformed Judaism but a perverted version of christianity. Few jews are religious. As for the jews, the prophecies of their prophets, as written in their scriptures, have become true, are becoming true and will become true.

Every 'ism', 'ity' is bound to cease. The world is moving towards a new homogenous order, towards a global village, a new age. Perhaps national and cultural boundaries will cease to exist. We are already witnessing a rapid inter-mingling of cultures, dispensation and shedding of baseless, meaningless practices; surmounting of cultural, regional, religous, racial barriers; adoption of simple life; holding on to only such things as are necessary, which will make life convenient and comfortable in this fast changing world, to keep in pace with the changing times.

And believe me, the change is POSITIVE.

 

[vgane]

The answer to this is kind of obvious isnt it? Get them, their friends and families to find them mates, to the best of their ability. Since you cant force anybody to marry anybody else, they have to do their best to find a suitable mate among the pool of women they have access to. If people are picky, there is a chance they run the risk of not finding a mate or begetting progeny and hence becoming extinct.

Make yourself marketable and try to persuade a woman you fancy. What other answer is there?

Despite the best efforts (?) our guys are not married...We have lost out 100K Kids from the community...

Can we think some thing radical but is feasible....These unmarried guys can rear a family by the advances in Medicine


Can they produce children through surrogate mother....But they should find Brahmin Girls who are willing to donate their eggs....Also not sure if any unwed man can get a child through this route...Is it legal....

If not legal. then the laws of the country have to be changed to allow single unwed males to have kids

 

[biswa]

Wow, that really is a radical idea!

So you think the guys dont really want companionship and marital bliss, but all they want is to propagate their genes using Brahmin eggs? If the egg is Brahmin, does the surrogate mother also need to be Brahmin, because the surrogate does not contribute genes you know.

But what should be done about the children? Won't they miss having a mother? That's a sad fate, isn't it?

 

[biswa]

But I am really impressed that you figured out a way around the problem without technically committing polyandry.

But you know, there is realistically no fear of extinction. It is quite medically feasible to preserve the "seed" of these unwed men by simply freezing them till eternity. This has had good success in the field of IVF (in-vitro fertilization).

Of course when the seed will find a Brahmin receptacle, I dont know for sure. But the receptacle doesnt really have to be a TB woman right, because anyway the child wont know its mother. Any Brahmin egg should do to avoid the problem of varna sankara​.

 

[sangom]

Despite the best efforts (?) our guys are not married...We have lost out 100K Kids from the community...

Can we think some thing radical but is feasible....These unmarried guys can rear a family by the advances in Medicine


Can they produce children through surrogate mother....But they should find Brahmin Girls who are willing to donate their eggs....Also not sure if any unwed man can get a child through this route...Is it legal....

If not legal. then the laws of the country have to be changed to allow single unwed males to have kids

Dear Shri gane,

The solution to the problem of tabra males not being able to get married, is to allow IC marriages, according to me. Merely trying to ensure that a brahmin sperm joins only a brahmin ovum and the product of such fertilization will be a brahmin who will learn, preserve and pass on some very valuable community treasure, looks as a silly and unreal idea to me. This is because our tabra community has steadily been going away from the brahmin ways and values of life during the last century or more and at present, many tabra families have become "rich" thanks to the fact that their youngsters have been successful in getting IT sector jobs, especially in foreign countries and have been extending significant help to their elders financially and in other ways. It is from this vantage point that some of us are now getting the feeling that there is some great and valuable treasure with the tabra community in terms of its culture, beliefs, rituals, scriptures and so on. But in truth, this kind of feeling is baseless, imo. What today many so-called religious tabras do or follow is just the 'ghost' of the brahmin ways of life, value system and beliefs which prevailed perhaps 4 or 5 generations ago. If these 3 or 4 past generations including ours, could knowingly degrade or desecrate those ways of life, value system and beliefs, why can't we allow some more of the same treatment by the ensuing generations and still call whatever is left, as brahminism or brahmin community's unique treasure? IC marriages will not inflict any great harm in this process; IR marriages may.

This point requires calm and dispassionate thinking, I believe.

 

[sarang]

The simplest and ethical way is to accept girls from other communities, who are sympathetic to and inclined for brahminical ways. Acceptance by the parents of both and blessings from the guru will make this possible; I know a few cases when the common guru (like from art of living and many such institutions) recommends a girl from his disciples, and accepted by both the boy and the girl. I know a few girls who have easily fitted into vaishnava families, even though they are from a different background. Next moth a gujarati girl, a family friend, is marrying an iyengar boy; she wanted to marry an iyengar boy to start with and she found one. I know girls from nonbrahmin families marrying brahmins of all subsects - vaishnava, smartha and madwas. In almost all cases, the boys' parents have accepted the and welcomed the girls into the family; and the girls have seamlessly merged and become brahmins in theory and practice.

Many do not ask their acharyan to find a girl for their middle aged son, because, it will be difficult to reject the girl recommended by him.

I feel, the problem will be considerably mitigated, if we accept girls from all sects of brahmins and from communities which do not object to their girls marrying out.

It is important that the boy wants to practice the essentials of brahmana practices; it makes no sense to those who have neither respect or affinity to brahmanahood.