Is the Community digging its own grave

[Vaagmi]

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Dear palindrome,

During the period of entire Rig (samhitas), varna vyavastha was not in force. But after the period of Samhitas came the period of Brahmanas (texts); wherein elaborate sacrifices were created (Refer here and here). During this period (when Brahmanas (texts) were composed or created), there was intense struggle for the office of brahmana. At this time, the shudras were already a demarcated group (infact all thru the vedic samhita period also the asuras / dasyus were an inimical group, however they were not enslaved yet). In this particular story Kavasa was the son of a rishi from a shudra (slave) woman. He was a product of anuloma (brahman father, shudra mother).

I do not believe in the chronology of the vedas as arrived at by the western scholars. Kavasha was not belonging to any of the chathur varna. The meaning of these words"RshayOvai sarsvathyAm sathramAsatha/. thE kavasam Mylusham sOmAthanayanthAsyA: puthra:kithavO brAhmana:katham nO madhyE...... indicate that and that is enough for me. And that is exactly what I meant.

When Kavasa sought to take part in the soma yagna (sacrifice), the other rishis (madhyamas) derided him. But Saraswati came to his rescue and declared Kavasa guiltless. Then Kavasha was accepted in the sacrifice. This merely shows shudras were unacceptable in yagnas. No less than a personage as Sarasvati herself had to declare him guiltless (due to his birth). Infact the other rishis had driven out Kavasa to die of thirst. At this time he 'saw' (composed) mantras (kindly note there is no evidence he was taught vedas, instead he composed mantras himself which became part of vedic brahmanas (texts)). Possibly since Kavasha was an achiever (composer plus killer of rakshasas), he made his place amongst brahmans. Sorry Vaagmi, this point does not show Shudras were taught vedas. Infact you said Gavasha was a panchama -- sorry but nowhere is Kavasha called a panchama.

The saraswati here is the river saraswati. kavasa was accepted as Devarshi by the other rshis as said in the original verse.The saraswati here is the river saraswati because the mantra says the river saraswathi did a circumambulation of kavasha- "parisArakam" is the word used there.. kavasa was accepted as Devarshi by the other rshis as said in the original verse. Not only that, they apologised to kavasa and requested him to be the chief priest with them in conducting the yagas. One who does not know the vedas never conducts the yagas in the position of a chief priest. And that , for me, settles the matter.

It is here (Sanskrit version is here). Where is Kakshivant called a shudra ?

kakshivanthan was the son of usijai. My learned master told me that means he was a shudra.

3)JAnasruthi-please refer to Chandokya upanishad !V-2-1...5.
Please can you provide the verse where he is called a shudra?
Please can you provide the verse where he is called a shudra?

He is called a shudra repeatedly in the relevant veda mantras as "shudra thasmai", "shudranEnaiva" etc., Please carefully read it.

Sorry Vaagmi, it turns out jAnasruti was not a shudra;

He was indeed a shudra though a king.

whilst Kavasha was born of a brahman father and shudra mother (he was part brahman yet had to face such troubles and ostracism).

He was not belonging to the chatur varnas either. There was no system of half brahmins.

As for Kakshivant, nowhere is he called a shudra.

The context gives scope for inferring that he was a shudra.

Thank you. As this has become a protracted correspondence involving veda mantras and their meanings as understood by us, I am not interested in continuing this any further. Already Mr. Sangom is taking pot shots at me from the fence. If you think jAnasruthi was not a shudra, kakshivantan was not a shudra, kavashan was not a panchama etc. so be it. I go with my understanding and you go with your understanding of the mantras. bye.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Shri gane,

The solution to the problem of tabra males not being able to get married, is to allow IC marriages, according to me. Merely trying to ensure that a brahmin sperm joins only a brahmin ovum and the product of such fertilization will be a brahmin who will learn, preserve and pass on some very valuable community treasure, looks as a silly and unreal idea to me. This is because our tabra community has steadily been going away from the brahmin ways and values of life during the last century or more and at present, many tabra families have become "rich" thanks to the fact that their youngsters have been successful in getting IT sector jobs, especially in foreign countries and have been extending significant help to their elders financially and in other ways. It is from this vantage point that some of us are now getting the feeling that there is some great and valuable treasure with the tabra community in terms of its culture, beliefs, rituals, scriptures and so on. But in truth, this kind of feeling is baseless, imo. What today many so-called religious tabras do or follow is just the 'ghost' of the brahmin ways of life, value system and beliefs which prevailed perhaps 4 or 5 generations ago. If these 3 or 4 past generations including ours, could knowingly degrade or desecrate those ways of life, value system and beliefs, why can't we allow some more of the same treatment by the ensuing generations and still call whatever is left, as brahminism or brahmin community's unique treasure? IC marriages will not inflict any great harm in this process; IR marriages may.

This point requires calm and dispassionate thinking, I believe.

Dear Mr. Sangom,

Please refer to the highlighted sentence above. Could you please elaborate what are these brahmin ways, values etc., Thank you.

 

[amala]

Sir,
You are being very practical, logical, and realistic. That is not the way TB's act, you live in USA and you do not know the TN way. WE want it our way or else we will keep on crying. Wee-Weee.

er..PrasadJi, Wee-Wee isn't really the cryinging sound, its something else!! I think you mean Waahh.

 

[prasad1]

er..PrasadJi, Wee-Wee isn't really the cryinging sound, its something else!! I think you mean Waahh.

You might be right.
I got that from the song lyrics.

The most common modern version is:


This little piggy went to the market,
This little piggy stayed home,
This little piggy had roast beef,
This little piggy had none,
And this little piggy cried wee wee wee all the way home.

 

[sangom]

Dear Mr. Sangom,

Please refer to the highlighted sentence above. Could you please elaborate what are these brahmin ways, values etc., Thank you.

Shri Vaagmi,

I am sure you are putting this question, fully knowing what the answer is. Hence, I don't think it deserves an answer from myself.

 

[Nara]

....Can they produce children through surrogate mother....But they should find Brahmin Girls who are willing to donate their eggs....Also not sure if any unwed man can get a child through this route...Is it legal....

If not legal. then the laws of the country have to be changed to allow single unwed males to have kids

and you say caste purity is not the issue!!! It seems that is the only thing that you care about ...

 

[sangom]

Dear palindrome,



I do not believe in the chronology of the vedas as arrived at by the western scholars. Kavasha was not belonging to any of the chathur varna. The meaning of these words"RshayOvai sarsvathyAm sathramAsatha/. thE kavasam Mylusham sOmAthanayanthAsyA: puthra:kithavO brAhmana:katham nO madhyE...... indicate that and that is enough for me. And that is exactly what I meant.



The saraswati here is the river saraswati. kavasa was accepted as Devarshi by the other rshis as said in the original verse.The saraswati here is the river saraswati because the mantra says the river saraswathi did a circumambulation of kavasha- "parisArakam" is the word used there.. kavasa was accepted as Devarshi by the other rshis as said in the original verse. Not only that, they apologised to kavasa and requested him to be the chief priest with them in conducting the yagas. One who does not know the vedas never conducts the yagas in the position of a chief priest. And that , for me, settles the matter.




kakshivanthan was the son of usijai. My learned master told me that means he was a shudra.



He is called a shudra repeatedly in the relevant veda mantras as "shudra thasmai", "shudranEnaiva" etc., Please carefully read it.



He was indeed a shudra though a king.



He was not belonging to the chatur varnas either. There was no system of half brahmins.



The context gives scope for inferring that he was a shudra.

Thank you. As this has become a protracted correspondence involving veda mantras and their meanings as understood by us, I am not interested in continuing this any further. Already Mr. Sangom is taking pot shots at me from the fence. If you think jAnasruthi was not a shudra, kakshivantan was not a shudra, kavashan was not a panchama etc. so be it. I go with my understanding and you go with your understanding of the mantras. bye.

कक्षीवन्तः (kakṣīvantaḥ), according to legends, was the son of दीर्घतमस् (dīrghatamas) - a vedic ṛṣi and उशिजा (uśijā) a slave. According to Manu Dharma Sastra, the varna (caste) of a progeny of vedic ṛṣis is not prescribed. But from the exploits of sage Parasara with Satyavati (a ferry woman), if Vyasa can be considered as equal to or even above ordinary brahmins of his times, kakṣīvantaḥ is also eligible for the same social status or else, Vyasa must also be considered as a Sudra.

There is no jānaśruti in chāndogya; it is janaśruti, great grandson of janaśruta; the caste to which both these persons belonged is not mentioned. But from the descriptions of what janaśruti did, his having an attendant etc., points to this janaśruti being not a Sudra. Raikva, of course calls him repeatedly as Sudra and this is probably out of displeasure, or, as Adishankara's commentary says, "Here the teachers (of yore) have said (as follows) : On hearing the words of the swans, the king became "Possessed of sorrow". On account of this sorrow or because of hearing the glory of raikva, the king got dissolved. Hence raikva - a rishi - revealing his ability to know what is invisible to ordinary men, addressed the king as Sudra. Or, the king was so addressed because he, like a sudra, approached raikva with wealth in exchange for knowledge, without offering his own services, but not because he was a sudra by caste."

Kavasha was held to be the progeny of ilyushi. The portion cited by you ("RshayOvai sarsvathyAm sathramAsatha/. thE kavasam Mylusham sOmAthanayanthAsyA: puthra:kithavO brAhmana:katham nO madhyE...) is only the first scene; he is driven to the desert and left to die of thirst there by the rishis gritsamada, viswamitra, vamadeva, atri, bharadwaja and vasishta, but kavasha lying there, composes the mantra known as aponaptiya and recites it, upon which river sarasvati changes course and comes to quench his thirst. Seeing this miracle, the shameless rishi group of gritsamada & co., rush to beg him for forgiveness, invite him to their company and give him his rightful place of honour during the remsining part of their satra. The only reference to kavasha's caste comes in the portion in which gritsamada & co, address kavasha as "maid's son" and "gambler". His paternity is not known. Once again, we have the parasara-vyasa episode as a thorn in our back!!

 

[Nara]

.... If you think jAnasruthi was not a shudra, kakshivantan was not a shudra, kavashan was not a panchama etc. so be it. I go with my understanding and you go with your understanding of the mantras. bye.

Dear Vaagmi, since you believe (a) there is evidence that "Shudra" and "Pancama" were allowed to recite the Vedas (which implies they have to learn to recite the Vedas in the first place), and (b) Vedas trump the prohibitions found in the Dharmashastras, may I then ask you to repudiate the practice of not admitting "Shudra" and "Pancama" into Veda Patashalas run by Brahmins, and declare that the reigning Brahminical Matathipathees and their acharya lineage are wrong in upholding these Varna based restrictions on who can be taught to recite and recite the Vedas? I know this won't change anything in practice, but this is about being consistent to the principles you are arguing for. Specifically, I ask you to state for the record that the Jeeyars, Andavans, and SV Svayamacharyas are all wrong about the continuing practice of not allowing "Shudra" and "Pancama" to learn to recite the Vedas.

Thank you ....

 

[Vaagmi]

Shri Vaagmi,

I am sure you are putting this question, fully knowing what the answer is. Hence, I don't think it deserves an answer from myself.

Dear Mr Sangom,

I know what the answer is but that is only to the best of my knowledge. I want to know what is your understanding. That is why asked that. Only when I know your position I can further probe and gain something. You want to deny me that opportunity. It is ok. Thanks.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Vaagmi, since you believe (a) there is evidence that "Shudra" and "Pancama" were allowed to recite the Vedas (which implies they have to learn to recite the Vedas in the first place), and (b) Vedas trump the prohibitions found in the Dharmashastras, may I then ask you to repudiate the practice of not admitting "Shudra" and "Pancama" into Veda Patashalas run by Brahmins, and declare that the reigning Brahminical Matathipathees and their acharya lineage are wrong in upholding these Varna based restrictions on who can be taught to recite and recite the Vedas? I know this won't change anything in practice, but this is about being consistent to the principles you are arguing for. Specifically, I ask you to state for the record that the Jeeyars, Andavans, and SV Svayamacharyas are all wrong about the continuing practice of not allowing "Shudra" and "Pancama" to learn to recite the Vedas.

Thank you ....

Dear Nara,

This is called mischief. I can even call it 'kutarkam' to borrow a term from Sangom or 'ridiculous' by borrowing a term from yourself. If I were to run a veda patasala and teach vedas there, I would not mind admitting a panchaman student there if he fulfills the criteria I have set for admission. If I do not admit him he can go and get admitted into any other patasala where the criterion is different and within his reach. I repeat veda is pure knowledge. No one can deny it to anyone who is seriously after it. I have no control over the matoms. I do not recommend any thing to any one, least of all to the matathipathis, if I am not sure my words will be given the due value. This is certainly better than not positively recommending to and actively promoting IC/IR marriages to their children by the champions of IC/IR marriages here. A person who is serious about learning vedas can learn it from the internet. It has become that easy and you are talking about veda patasalas.

And who is really serious among the panchamans about learning vedas? If they spent the same amount of time in memorising the bible they can build a financial empire in India. So I have no such problems in my hand to think about. If and when I come to that I will cross the bridge. I note with interest that you have added carefully the term SV svayamacharyas here to the list of matoms. Thanks

 

[vgane]

Wow, that really is a radical idea!

So you think the guys dont really want companionship and marital bliss, but all they want is to propagate their genes using Brahmin eggs? If the egg is Brahmin, does the surrogate mother also need to be Brahmin, because the surrogate does not contribute genes you know.

But what should be done about the children? Won't they miss having a mother? That's a sad fate, isn't it?

I do agree that the children will be without the mother..I am unable to find a better solution to the Tambrahm men in their 30's and 40's waiting in vain for the lass who is going to satisfy their needs...Nowadays the parents have a better life expectancy & are there till the age of 80-90 years; so they can also take some of the burden in child rearing (they will be thrilled to do that), may be there is some other relative (sister,aunt) who will give a helping hand..

This will also change the outlook of the traditional Tambrahm families...They will understand that a rigid approach will take them no where..

With this solution the males who are dejected will get a new lease of life...

The males will have a progeny,a descendant who will be the automatic heir

 

[vgane]

and you say caste purity is not the issue!!! It seems that is the only thing that you care about ...

Dear Sir,

I did not say that I care 2 hoots for caste purity....The definition itself has metamorphosed in the past 50-60 years...We are aware about how Tambrahms have come a long way from sects and sub sects...It was heresy to talk about Iyer/Iyengar marriage or marriage between 2 sub sects. 4 to 5 decades back..

From that level present day Brahms are OK with marrying just a Brahmin...Also by saying that I will marry only a Brahmin am I being seen as impractical, stubborn and narrow minded

I do not think so...By saying that I will marry only a Brahmin is OK to me from my cultural moorings, tradition and way of bringing up

 

[Nara]

This is called mischief. I can even call it 'kutarkam' to borrow a term from Sangom or 'ridiculous' by borrowing a term from yourself...

Call it whatever you want dear Vaagmi, but please answer my question in an honest and forthright way. If you truly believe there is vedic evidence for your position on "Shudras" and "Pancamas" reciting vedas, then why won't you say that these acharays and their acharya lineage are wrong? I am not asking you to go and say this to their faces, let alone argue with them. Leave all the obfuscations aside, are you willing to stand for your principles or are you going to wobble?

Sorry to put you on a spot like this, but how strongly you believe in your own case can be tested only in this way .....

 

[kunjuppu]

The simplest and ethical way is to accept girls from other communities, who are sympathetic to and inclined for brahminical ways. Acceptance by the parents of both and blessings from the guru will make this possible; I know a few cases when the common guru (like from art of living and many such institutions) recommends a girl from his disciples, and accepted by both the boy and the girl. I know a few girls who have easily fitted into vaishnava families, even though they are from a different background. Next moth a gujarati girl, a family friend, is marrying an iyengar boy; she wanted to marry an iyengar boy to start with and she found one. I know girls from nonbrahmin families marrying brahmins of all subsects - vaishnava, smartha and madwas. In almost all cases, the boys' parents have accepted the and welcomed the girls into the family; and the girls have seamlessly merged and become brahmins in theory and practice.

Many do not ask their acharyan to find a girl for their middle aged son, because, it will be difficult to reject the girl recommended by him.

I feel, the problem will be considerably mitigated, if we accept girls from all sects of brahmins and from communities which do not object to their girls marrying out.

It is important that the boy wants to practice the essentials of brahmana practices; it makes no sense to those who have neither respect or affinity to brahmanahood.

great idea. many of us have been adovacting the same. folks like vgane et al should note, and if they are in this age group that is impacted, should not hesitate to pursue this option.

it solves the issue, sensible and with respect.

 

[kunjuppu]

Despite the best efforts (?) our guys are not married...We have lost out 100K Kids from the community...

Can we think some thing radical but is feasible....These unmarried guys can rear a family by the advances in Medicine


Can they produce children through surrogate mother....But they should find Brahmin Girls who are willing to donate their eggs....Also not sure if any unwed man can get a child through this route...Is it legal....

If not legal. then the laws of the country have to be changed to allow single unwed males to have kids

vgane, the era when we started having small families, we have 'lost' the luxury of choice through our own progeny. having 2 children is barely enough to propagate ourselves, not counting for early deaths. and most tambram families i know today, have only one, and some none at all.

so with this a reality, one needs to think out of the box. add to it, urbanization on a global level, emancipation and education of women, and the long periods it takes to equip oneself for life and above all, the introduction of the concept of 'choice'. all these are factors, which go dead against the old formulae that arranged marriage was based on.

add to it, what i see as still irrational belief and dependence on dubious astrology - i call it dubious only because, no two astrologers appear to agree, and to top it all, there is no 100% guarantee of the predictions. with such poor probability, ie if everything still turns out to be a chance, why focus on jadhagam matching at all? this is another big obstacle especially to those have 'doshams'....

 

[sarang]

And respect and practice brahmana way of life to the best of one's ability, and propagate the holy tradition.

great idea. many of us have been adovacting the same. folks like vgane et al should note, and if they are in this age group that is impacted, should not hesitate to pursue this option.

it solves the issue, sensible and with respect.

 

[biswa]

But most modern marriages in the educated middle-class result in some give and take, isn't it? It is usually not one side completely imposing their ideas on another. So I think this depends on the persuasive power of the individual and on what one is willing to give in order to ​get.

 

[renuka]

With this solution the males who are dejected will get a new lease of life...

The males will have a progeny,a descendant who will be the automatic heir

Good suggestion..may be cloning of the unmarried males will be a better option in the future..so these men can get a carbon copy of themselves as their automatic heir.

But for the sexual needs of the unmarried males may be a female humanoid can be considered.


She is not human to start with hence :

1)She wont have demands

2)She wont nag you

3)She does not gain weight

4)She does not grow older

5)She remains ever beautiful

 

[Nara]

....With this solution the males who are dejected will get a new lease of life...

The males will have a progeny,a descendant who will be the automatic heir

Of course, all you care about is the continuance of the Brahmin caste. But what about a fulfilling life for these tens of thousands of mid-age Brahmin boys who cannot find Brahmin mates? From your POV they have to suck it up as long as they can produce a Brahmin offspring using the latest technology, as if that is all their lives are worth.

IMO, may be humble or may be not, let these men marry any woman they can attract irrespective of caste or religion and make a full life out of it. If they can, let them bring up their progeny in Brahmnical ways, whatever that means, damn caste purity. I say to these tens of thousands of young men, nobody from the caste-purity police is interested in your happiness, take your life in your own hands and find a partner with whom you can make a happy life.

thanks ...

 

[sravna]

The world is such an interesting place because of its diversity. That there are so many different viewpoints on any issue is what makes one learn and progress. If we try to create a monolithic whole by making the people lose their identity, what is the difference between a human and a robot?

Each community has something to offer to the rest and only on this very idea of complemntarity that different groups existed in the past. We need to understand this rationale and try to uphold the idea of unity in diversity.

Why should people try to make all apples as oranges or vice versa?

 

[kunjuppu]

And respect and practice brahmana way of life to the best of one's ability, and propagate the holy tradition.

i think i interpret this as 'we are all brahmins (by birth). as KRS used to say, some of us are 10% and others 15%. what differentiates us is the percentage, as since the past few hundred years we have been discarding what was 100% brahmana way of life.

in that context, if someone defines his brahmana way of life, is a poonal, daily once sandhy, amavasai shraddham and avani avittam, which is what majority of tamil nadu domiciled brahmanas practice, afaik, then that is the new 100% maybe?

the ancient brahmana, would consider all of us blasphemists. but who cares. they are not living with us anymore. only the percentage ones, and unless the mutts came and announce that in order to be defined a brahmana, one must practise such and such, we all are, either brahmanas or none.

eh!

 

[Vaagmi]

Call it whatever you want dear Vaagmi, but please answer my question in an honest and forthright way. If you truly believe there is vedic evidence for your position on "Shudras" and "Pancamas" reciting vedas, then why won't you say that these acharays and their acharya lineage are wrong? I am not asking you to go and say this to their faces, let alone argue with them. Leave all the obfuscations aside, are you willing to stand for your principles or are you going to wobble?

Sorry to put you on a spot like this, but how strongly you believe in your own case can be tested only in this way .....

Dear Mr. Nara,

It appears you have picked up a lot from the TN Politicians. I can answer your question very easily and say yes I condemn. But I won’t do that now. I am not yet sure that I am not dealing with hypocrites. You and Your friend have not given me a forthright answer, a straight answer(like the one you are demanding from me) of yes or no when I asked a pointed question in this forum as to whether you would forcefully tell your children and grand children not to marry from the Brahmin caste (the janma Brahmins), start searching exclusively for NB matches for all those eligible children in the family, admonish them if they marry from the brahmin caste and throw them away from the family as a punishment for such marriages. I would expect you to even state your preferences clearly to those children that if they choose a panchaman as a match you would reward them with all your properties. Say yes or no to this. I want this from you because I have come across repeatedly several times in this forum from you two people(you and Mr. Sangom) lectures about the greatness of and desirability of IC/IR marriages, the meaninglessness of castes and exhortation to marry outside the caste. Please answer my question straight and I will give you my answer. Don’t give me the nonsense of “children as they choose” free will argument because parents do facilitate and participate in the decision making process of their children in choosing a match. Let me see whether my hope that you are all not empty/hollow balloons flying high in the horizon is not belied. Sorry to put you in a spot too…….. Thanks

 

[kunjuppu]

vaagmi,

my take on your post #297

i live in canada, and i have very little influence on whom my children chose as their spouse. over the years as they have grown up, i presume, we as parents, have inculcated certain values. in my case, i have recommended a broad framework, and again i have to confess, this is not a universal blank cheque, but more a product of my personal values.

that my children completely negate my views could happen. or they could take bits and pieces as needed.

ultimately it is a marriage of their choice, and chances are, from any indication so far, it will be someone who is compatible with them re the views on life and professions and culture.

agreed, all this is much easier in the west than in india. so, to your query, ie to compare apple with apple, the issue, is whether in india, one would have an arranged IC marriage. i dont know, if in current environment, that is possible, given the education and independence our youth have.

already, there is a trend towards IC marriages, which is significant enough tobe noticed in this forum. but all of them, i presume are 'love' marriages. maybe a day would come, when social and educational compatibility may mean more at the parental level, than caste. i doubt if that would happen in india, in my lifetime, even though i would welcome it.

fyi, there are organizations, even in tamil nadu, which promote and help organize such under their premises.

 

[talwan]

Thanks Renukaji foe remembering me.I try to be more regular here.
Alwan

 

[sravna]

The real point is why should the superiority of the values associated with brahmins disturb some people so much? If they are really superior and such people know it there is no real case to argue and if they are not superior why bother as it is harmless unless it is the case that the superiority is real and that such people for some reason want to deny that truth at any cost.

Remember, in this age, when one is really good it is also important to project oneself as good but when one is not good all that is required for others to realize that, at least in the long run, is one be just not good.

So if the values and practices associated with brahmins have no unique merit, why lose sleep over that?

I very much doubt if Shri Vaagmi would get a straight reply from Shri Nara for the questions he posed to him.