Is the Community digging its own grave

[Vaagmi]

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vaagmi,

my take on your post #297

i live in canada, and i have very little influence on whom my children chose as their spouse. over the years as they have grown up, i presume, we as parents, have inculcated certain values. in my case, i have recommended a broad framework, and again i have to confess, this is not a universal blank cheque, but more a product of my personal values.

that my children completely negate my views could happen. or they could take bits and pieces as needed.

ultimately it is a marriage of their choice, and chances are, from any indication so far, it will be someone who is compatible with them re the views on life and professions and culture.

agreed, all this is much easier in the west than in india. so, to your query, ie to compare apple with apple, the issue, is whether in india, one would have an arranged IC marriage. i dont know, if in current environment, that is possible, given the education and independence our youth have.

already, there is a trend towards IC marriages, which is significant enough tobe noticed in this forum. but all of them, i presume are 'love' marriages. maybe a day would come, when social and educational compatibility may mean more at the parental level, than caste. i doubt if that would happen in india, in my lifetime, even though i would welcome it.

fyi, there are organizations, even in tamil nadu, which promote and help organize such under their premises.

Dear Kunjuppu,

Thank you for your input. I remember I have told long back that the diaspora may not have options. Moreover the forces of the culture and values which impinge on them are totally different from what is the case with individuals in India. So for heaven's sake don't ever try to tell your children to go for arranged marriages in which you carefully select an indian boy or girl as a match. Let them choose in their own way according to the values they have picked up. But we are discussing here the indian scenario largely. Here IC marriage is an issue as it ruptures the cohesiveness of the families. We are discussing that. Here a failure is a failure for almost a life time whereas in west it is just a trial. If there is a failure there is always another and another attempt at it. Here parents are worried about whom the children choose as their life partners and this includes parents of every caste in existence here. The marriage is a long time family affair here and not an individual taking a shot at it. We are a creature of our culture and its values and that is why an IC marriage at times become a big issue here. Arranged IC marriages are a rarity here. They are either at the glitterati level or at the slum or BPL level. The bulk of the population which is called the middle class has not accepted it. In the middle class if you show me a IC marriage it will have a lot of political overtones and other calculations involved in it. Those organizations which promote and help organize such IC marriages under their premises are those who either have an axe to grind or are politically deeply involved. Thank you.

 

[Vaagmi]

i think i interpret this as 'we are all brahmins (by birth). as KRS used to say, some of us are 10% and others 15%. what differentiates us is the percentage, as since the past few hundred years we have been discarding what was 100% brahmana way of life.

in that context, if someone defines his brahmana way of life, is a poonal, daily once sandhy, amavasai shraddham and avani avittam, which is what majority of tamil nadu domiciled brahmanas practice, afaik, then that is the new 100% maybe?

the ancient brahmana, would consider all of us blasphemists. but who cares. they are not living with us anymore. only the percentage ones, and unless the mutts came and announce that in order to be defined a brahmana, one must practise such and such, we all are, either brahmanas or none.

eh!

dear Kunjuppu,

While the champions of progressiveness have not come forward to define the brahmana way of life, values or culture you have done that as you know it perhaps. Thank you. A poonal, daily sandhy once or twice or thrice,amavasya tharppanam and avani avittam poonal changing are all peripherals. Your statement that they define a brahmin today is a tongue in cheek statement. If you take the total number of murder convicts in India and find out how many of them are brahmins and then factor in the percentage of brahmins to the total population you will find a revealing story. This is in spite of the fact that brahmins are as much deprived or brutalised as others in the society in their day to day struggle to keep the body and soul together. If you take the total number of successful IT professionals from India and do the same exercise again the story again will be revealing. My friend Nara will call me a supremacist for saying this. But who cares. When celena Williams pumps her hand into the air after winning a match we do not complain about the supremacist in her. I have just taken two extreme cases and left all others in between in the society and day to day life because there are too many. So brahmin culture and values are more than the peripherals you have mentioned. Even today these values and the culture are remaining intact as they were in ancient times and they are passed on through the genes from generation to generation. It is something very harmlessly beautiful and why deny its existence? Think about it without being political. Thanks.

 

[prasad1]

This, then, is the reality in Tamil Nadu’s villages where caste groups continue to rule. The fact that this degree of violence is not seen when an upper caste man marries a lower caste woman shows that the caste politics at play are very much the politics of gender and masculinity. The voice of the woman, whether Dalit or Vanniyar, does not figure. They become the ‘trophies’, the symbols that the males of each caste use to prove status and power. A. Kathir runs Evidence, a Madurai-based NGO that works with Dalit issues. He is a Dalit man married to an upper caste woman. “If an upper caste man marries a lower caste or Dalit woman, he is considered ‘benevolent’; he has ‘uplifted’ her. It is his heir that she will bear. But when an upper caste woman marries a Dalit man, she bears a lower-caste heir and caste fanatics will not allow their caste being made ‘impure’,” he says. In Vedaranyam in May last year, a Vanniyar woman was lynched for having an affair with a Dalit man. Before she died, the men from her caste reportedly asked her if Vanniyar men could not make her happy.


The role of caste-based political parties has been that of guardians of their caste’s masculine honour, and the onus of maintaining that honour continues to fall on the woman. Unfortunately, as Kathir points out, while several other states have been asked to furnish reports on instances of honour killing, Tamil Nadu has not figured on the list because it is not called honour killing here. Says U. Vasuki, Tamil Nadu State General Secretary of AIDWA (All India Democratic Women’s Association) “When a father kills his daughter and her husband for a ‘love marriage’ it is registered as murder by the police. When we go on field visits to Theni or Sivaganagai, we find a lot of ‘missing’ women. The parents don’t follow up and the police are more than happy to say she must have eloped with someone. What our country needs is a separate legislation for honour killing like we have for Sati.”


Within each caste, upper or lower, women are considered inferior. “However, since she is the main instrument carrying caste purity into the next generation, she is forced to marry a man from her caste. This is how caste groups keep women’s sexuality under control,” says Vasuki. “Ramadoss has said that Dalit men touching Vanniyar women will have their hands cut off. AIDWA’s question to him is what they will do if a Vanniyar man touches a woman without her permission?”


Caste groups sustain power on their ability to control the men of subordinate castes, which rides on their ability to control women in public and private spheres. As Iraivi says, “They threaten violence to anybody who dares to challenge this. It’s for the government to offer protection to these families.”

The_Hindu
Love in the time of caste - The Hindu

Yes it is a drop in the bucket, but worth noting.

 

[sangom]

dear Kunjuppu,

While the champions of progressiveness have not come forward to define the brahmana way of life, values or culture you have done that as you know it perhaps. Thank you. A poonal, daily sandhy once or twice or thrice,amavasya tharppanam and avani avittam poonal changing are all peripherals. Your statement that they define a brahmin today is a tongue in cheek statement. If you take the total number of murder convicts in India and find out how many of them are brahmins and then factor in the percentage of brahmins to the total population you will find a revealing story. This is in spite of the fact that brahmins are as much deprived or brutalised as others in the society in their day to day struggle to keep the body and soul together. If you take the total number of successful IT professionals from India and do the same exercise again the story again will be revealing. My friend Nara will call me a supremacist for saying this. But who cares. When celena Williams pumps her hand into the air after winning a match we do not complain about the supremacist in her. I have just taken two extreme cases and left all others in between in the society and day to day life because there are too many. So brahmin culture and values are more than the peripherals you have mentioned. Even today these values and the culture are remaining intact as they were in ancient times and they are passed on through the genes from generation to generation. It is something very harmlessly beautiful and why deny its existence? Think about it without being political. Thanks.

I find that here is an attempt to define brahmanas in terms of (i) they being not involved in murder charges, and, (ii) their being comparatively more successful as IT professionals. But, again, these are not tantamount to a clear definition of the optimum "brahmin way of life".

I have seen many well-paid IT professionals from the tabra community. Barring a few who made their appearance in this forum now & then, and gave us an impression that they are/were too eager to 'learn' (mind it - they just did not know) about one or the other brahmin rituals like sandhy, tarpanam, etc., the majority do not seem to bother and their tangential contact points with brahmin ways of life are nil, practically. On the contrary, I see many IT professionals who drink, smoke, eat NV food as though it is unavoidable for a healthy living, and have girl friends and some also are in living-in arrangements.

As regards brahmins not generally committing murders, my analysis is that basically we tabras are a cowardly people and will flee the moment there is any need for physical aggression.

Shri Vaagmi refers to Serena Williams, I think, but that gesturing has become more a sine qua non with most sportspersons, even if they are on the lowest ranks. Once they score a point or make one good play, almost all the fellows/fellowis will do that; they try to imitate Tarzan, the ape-man or something like that. Hence, it has very little to do with any supremacist feelings, imo.

What is relevant is that we tabras, as a community, have knowingly departed from the ways of life of some 100 or 200 years ago, in our pursuit of two square meals a day, and, in that journey we have become completely servile to rank materialism. But some of the people cling on to some or the other ritual/s, texts, etc., and consider that they truly represent unalloyed samples of pure brahmanas. That is tragic and, at the same time, comical.

 

[Vaagmi]

This, then, is the reality in Tamil Nadu’s villages where caste groups continue to rule. The fact that this degree of violence is not seen when an upper caste man marries a lower caste woman shows that the caste politics at play are very much the politics of gender and masculinity. The voice of the woman, whether Dalit or Vanniyar, does not figure. They become the ‘trophies’, the symbols that the males of each caste use to prove status and power. A. Kathir runs Evidence, a Madurai-based NGO that works with Dalit issues. He is a Dalit man married to an upper caste woman. “If an upper caste man marries a lower caste or Dalit woman, he is considered ‘benevolent’; he has ‘uplifted’ her. It is his heir that she will bear. But when an upper caste woman marries a Dalit man, she bears a lower-caste heir and caste fanatics will not allow their caste being made ‘impure’,” he says. In Vedaranyam in May last year, a Vanniyar woman was lynched for having an affair with a Dalit man. Before she died, the men from her caste reportedly asked her if Vanniyar men could not make her happy.


The role of caste-based political parties has been that of guardians of their caste’s masculine honour, and the onus of maintaining that honour continues to fall on the woman. Unfortunately, as Kathir points out, while several other states have been asked to furnish reports on instances of honour killing, Tamil Nadu has not figured on the list because it is not called honour killing here. Says U. Vasuki, Tamil Nadu State General Secretary of AIDWA (All India Democratic Women’s Association) “When a father kills his daughter and her husband for a ‘love marriage’ it is registered as murder by the police. When we go on field visits to Theni or Sivaganagai, we find a lot of ‘missing’ women. The parents don’t follow up and the police are more than happy to say she must have eloped with someone. What our country needs is a separate legislation for honour killing like we have for Sati.”


Within each caste, upper or lower, women are considered inferior. “However, since she is the main instrument carrying caste purity into the next generation, she is forced to marry a man from her caste. This is how caste groups keep women’s sexuality under control,” says Vasuki. “Ramadoss has said that Dalit men touching Vanniyar women will have their hands cut off. AIDWA’s question to him is what they will do if a Vanniyar man touches a woman without her permission?”


Caste groups sustain power on their ability to control the men of subordinate castes, which rides on their ability to control women in public and private spheres. As Iraivi says, “They threaten violence to anybody who dares to challenge this. It’s for the government to offer protection to these families.”

The_Hindu
Love in the time of caste - The Hindu

Yes it is a drop in the bucket, but worth noting.

The Govt. will never do that because Govt depends on the party and the party depends on the cadre and the cadres are held together by caste.

 

[prasad1]

What is relevant is that we tabras, as a community, have knowingly departed from the ways of life of some 100 or 200 years ago, in our pursuit of two square meals a day, and, in that journey we have become completely servile to rank materialism. But some of the people cling on to some or the other ritual/s, texts, etc., and consider that they truly represent unalloyed samples of pure brahmanas. That is tragic and, at the same time, comical.

Sangomji,
I agree with your views in general,
But you keep bringing this about Brahmins failing in life because they are not following their nityakarmas. I do not get it.
If brahmins are chasing materialism, what is wrong with it, they too happen to be humans. Why do you expect any special behavior from them?
From your earlier writings I know you do not think Brahmins have any special privileges (and rightly so) , then why must they have special responsibilities.

 

[sangom]

Sangomji,
I agree with your views in general,
But you keep bringing this about Brahmins failing in life because they are not following their nityakarmas. I do not get it.
If brahmins are chasing materialism, what is wrong with it, they too happen to be humans. Why do you expect any special behavior from them?
From your earlier writings I know you do not think Brahmins have any special privileges (and rightly so) , then why must they have special responsibilities.

Dear Shri Prasad,

I have to bring in the fact that tabras of today are not following the lifestyle of our forefathers of 150 or 200 years ago, repeatedly, in order to stress the point that whatever is being touted today as brahmin way of life is not the true thing.

I have not said anything which may be construed to mean that tabras chasing materialism is wrong or bad, nor have I written anything to suggest that "I" expect any special behaviour from them.

In the circumstances, the aforesaid "doubts" about my posts, look to me as though you yourself have some deep disquietude about these aspects/points. Otherwise, you do not want any opinion/s to appear which are not in complete conformity with your own views.

Kindly try to assimilate others' views with more equanimity.

 

[prasad1]

But some of the people cling on to some or the other ritual/s, texts, etc.

Sangomji,
You wrote that line. What is wrong if they follow in their private life, what they want (as long as it is legal)? I do not want someone else to tell me how to lead my life. You live your life by your principles and let me lead my life my way.

 

[Nara]

..... I need not ask him that at your bidding either. .... And in future please don't trouble me with such ridiculous requests. Sorry if I appear to be harsh. But it is a reaction to the needling you are indulging in. Thanks.

Vaagmi, you are correct, and I have since deleted my post. Thanks ...

 

[kunjuppu]

The real point is why should the superiority of the values associated with brahmins disturb some people so much? If they are really superior and such people know it there is no real case to argue and if they are not superior why bother as it is harmless unless it is the case that the superiority is real and that such people for some reason want to deny that truth at any cost.

Remember, in this age, when one is really good it is also important to project oneself as good but when one is not good all that is required for others to realize that, at least in the long run, is one be just not good.

So if the values and practices associated with brahmins have no unique merit, why lose sleep over that?

I very much doubt if Shri Vaagmi would get a straight reply from Shri Nara for the questions he posed to him.

dear sravana,

the way i see it, there may be some genetic factor to behaviour. i think it has also been proved, that a good education,nutrition, environment and exposure will cause to develop healthy and smart humans. as is evidenced by the old soviet union, where after the revolution, they had a social engineering similar to our quotas - ie only sons of peasants and factory workers were given access to higher education. and soviet science and engineering was nothing to sneeze at.

i think in the same way, many of us feel, that goodness and 'higher' values are not necessarily the monopoly of one caste and does not give any sense of superiority. goodness is universal and if you look around, the most social good were done by the christian missionaries who brought the concept of public hygience, western medicine and above all universal rights and governance, all in a country timebound hierarchically and castewise.

till about 100 years ago, social mobility was unheard. it first started when tambrams chose to eschew poverty and dignity, went to work as servants of the british bureaucracy. in the process. built up a solid middle class, no longer dependent on the goodwill of the mirasdars or the land. did we do any good to the community due to our newfound status? did we help out other communities? did we build schools hospitals choultries?

during our heydey ie starting from 40s thru 70s, when by default any tamil name of any fame was a tambram, did we not profit from all the other communities? did we in turn give back to those communities anything at all? we would only let our children and our own community benefit, and i would include myself as a beneficiary of a good english medium education provided by the missionaries and a superior post secondary education provided by the government.

but it did not strike me to contribute, because it was not within our psyche. so where is the 'the superiority of the values associated with brahmins disturb some people so much?' maybe above would give you a clue?

in contrast, there are communities like the jews who make giving back to the society as a utmost important goal. even in india, where their numbers were only in hundreds, you go up north and find the sassoon hospitals - imprints forever of a passing community.

today, i think, we are reaping the fruits of manu smrithi's concept of superiority exclusiveness and conceptual purity which resulted in us isolating ourselves into our agraharams and not knowing the realities of the world at large. but we have learned, learned the hard way. because, when periyar asked us to share the wealth of the government opportunities and largesse, we refused to a man, all in the name of 'merit'. and paid the price, though most of us, by that time (ie 1967) had enough werewithals not to be impacted adversely by the new concept of forced equality.

this is my take on the supposed superior values of tamil brahmins. a personal thing.

 

[Nara]

It appears you have picked up a lot from the TN Politicians.

Vaagmi, what have I picked up from TN politicians? Why is that relevant for you to provide a direct and honest answer to my question?

I can answer your question very easily and say yes I condemn. But I won’t do that now. I am not yet sure that I am not dealing with hypocrites...

So, you want to be a hypocrite because I might be a hypocrite? This does not make sense to me. The plain truth is your stand on who can recite the Vedas makes the Brahminical acharyas and their acharya lineage wrong. If you are right, they are wrong. If you don't admit to it, then I am afraid your are a hypocrite irrespective of whether I am a hypocrite also or not. Let us also be clear, I did not ask you to "condemn" anyone.

You and Your friend have not given me a forthright answer, a straight answer(like the one you are demanding from me) of yes or no when I asked a pointed question in this forum as to whether you would forcefully tell your children and grand children not to marry from the Brahmin caste

[snip]

Please answer my question straight and I will give you my answer. Don’t give me the nonsense of “children as they choose” free will argument because parents do facilitate and participate in the decision making process of their children in choosing a match. Let me see whether my hope that you are all not empty/hollow balloons flying high in the horizon is not belied. Sorry to put you in a spot too……..

Vaagmi, I have already answered this question as honestly as I can in post #122. Please understand, being "for" IC/IR does not mean being "against" SC/SR. This is basic logic. Such binary thinking is absurd.

Now, at the risk of being seen as self-serving, let me speculate what I would do personally with my children and grandchildren. I would tell them they can find their own mate or I can facilitate finding one for them if they so wish.

If they want to find one themselves I would advice them to make sure there is true affection and love between the pair. If this was happening in India I would tell them don't think about caste or religion. If and when they find a mate I would support them in every way possible. If I see any problems I would advice my child/grandchild to think through the issues and would try to be generally helpful, not a dictator.

If they want me to facilitate, I would look around the circle of friends and try to setup dinner outings with boys/girls who would be a good match irrespective of caste or religion.

Vaagmi, whether you are willing or not to state that your are right about who can recite the Vedas and the Brahminical Acharyas and their lineage are wrong has become moot now. By simply evading the question and predicating your answer to you verifying whether I am a hypocrite or not is quite revealing.

Thank you ....

 

[Vaagmi]

Vaagmi, you are correct, and I have since deleted my post. Thanks ...

Dear Nara,

That was a nice gesture and I appreciate. I have responded suitably so that you do not appear to have been admonished by an upstart. Thanks.

 

[Vaagmi]

Vaagmi, what have I picked up from TN politicians? Why is that relevant for you to provide a direct and honest answer to my question?

So, you want to be a hypocrite because I might be a hypocrite? This does not make sense to me. The plain truth is your stand on who can recite the Vedas makes the Brahminical acharyas and their acharya lineage wrong. If you are right, they are wrong. If you don't admit to it, then I am afraid your are a hypocrite irrespective of whether I am a hypocrite also or not. Let us also be clear, I did not ask you to "condemn" anyone.

Vaagmi, I have already answered this question as honestly as I can in post #122. Please understand, being "for" IC/IR does not mean being "against" SC/SR. This is basic logic. Such binary thinking is absurd.

Now, at the risk of being seen as self-serving, let me speculate what I would do personally with my children and grandchildren. I would tell them they can find their own mate or I can facilitate finding one for them if they so wish.

If they want to find one themselves I would advice them to make sure there is true affection and love between the pair. If this was happening in India I would tell them don't think about caste or religion. If and when they find a mate I would support them in every way possible. If I see any problems I would advice my child/grandchild to think through the issues and would try to be generally helpful, not a dictator.

If they want me to facilitate, I would look around the circle of friends and try to setup dinner outings with boys/girls who would be a good match irrespective of caste or religion.

Vaagmi, whether you are willing or not to state that your are right about who can recite the Vedas and the Brahminical Acharyas and their lineage are wrong has become moot now. By simply evading the question and predicating your answer to you verifying whether I am a hypocrite or not is quite revealing.

Thank you ....

Dear Nara,

Your answer is a clever play of words and an exercise in equivocation played splendidly. Even when you speculated you speculated carefully and avoided a direct answer to my direct question.You think you have answered my direct question directly. Be happy with that. And you are calling me a hypocrite because I wanted you to answer my question first. The reason why I asked the question is because I had asked a question first and I did not get an answer. I got a lot of 'put downs' instead. So I had a right to demand it from you when you wanted me answer your question. It is reasonably presumed that in a conversation the first question deserves an answer first chronologically. Thank you.

 

[sangom]

Sangomji,
You wrote that line. What is wrong if they follow in their private life, what they want (as long as it is legal)? I do not want someone else to tell me how to lead my life. You live your life by your principles and let me lead my life my way.

Please don't analyze just one sentence from a post and come to your own convenient conclusions in order to put down some other member. What I wrote was this:

"What is relevant is that we tabras, as a community, have knowingly departed from the ways of life of some 100 or 200 years ago, in our pursuit of two square meals a day, and, in that journey we have become completely servile to rank materialism. But some of the people cling on to some or the other ritual/s, texts, etc., and consider that they truly represent unalloyed samples of pure brahmanas. "

And now you have just taken a portion of a sentence from there viz., "But some of the people cling on to some or the other ritual/s, texts, etc." and want to cast aspersions on me and create a pointless argument.

I feel very uneasy to get along in such atmosphere and am therefore, withdrawing myself completely from this forum. Have a good time nit-picking like this.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

Like many others who urge that our community stick to its core values, I also believe that it is the real issue and not anything else. I talked about the superiority because I had the genuine doubt why should anyone give so much attention to something they see as unimportant. Otherwise I don't think there is any need to feel superior about anything I am supporting, though I feel good when I practice such values. I think the feeling of goodness is not misplaced and even required.

I agree there are brahmins who feel superior just because of their caste but the brahmins who are characterized truly by sattvic nature are indeed the type of brahmins we want to emulate. It is the values practiced by such people that we seek to preserve. Why should all the brahmins be thought of as supremacists when there are many who can stand out as models to everyone

I agree that we need to contribute to the society. But is it not true that there have been so many brahmins who were outstanding contributors to the society and there are many contributing even now atleast in terms of the knowledge they are able to impart?

There is so much of negative portrayals of brahmins. Brahmins are being even portrayed as cowards for eschewing violence when what we should be really doing is to extol it. The zeal to set right the wrongs of the past is ok but I think we should not overdo it and especially not lose sight of the core issue which is to preserve the values of the community.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear kunjuppu,

Your post #308:

today, i think, we are reaping the fruits of manu smrithi's concept of superiority exclusiveness and conceptual purity which resulted in us isolating ourselves into our agraharams and not knowing the realities of the world at large. but we have learned, learned the hard way. because, when periyar asked us to share the wealth of the government opportunities and largesse, we refused to a man, all in the name of 'merit'. and paid the price, though most of us, by that time (ie 1967) had enough werewithals not to be impacted adversely by the new concept of forced equality.

1. There is no proof that manu smriti was the handiwork of brahmins.

2. EVR did not say anything new. It was already thought of by brahmins who were members of the Constituent Assembly which framed the Indian Constitution. If affirmative action is a reality in India we owe it to the foresight of those learned members of the Constituent Assembly. EVR's contribution to that was a big zero. He was at that point of time asking the Colonial power to stay in India and continue for ever. The forced equality did not affect me because I could obtain a loan scholarship for my higher studies and I paid back the amount to the central government with interest to the last paisa. Perhaps a brahmin boy was the best bet and would not cheat them on repayment of principle and interest.

My perception in this matter is quite different from yours. Thank you.

 

[Vaagmi]

I find that here is an attempt to define brahmanas in terms of (i) they being not involved in murder charges, and, (ii) their being comparatively more successful as IT professionals. But, again, these are not tantamount to a clear definition of the optimum "brahmin way of life".

I have seen many well-paid IT professionals from the tabra community. Barring a few who made their appearance in this forum now & then, and gave us an impression that they are/were too eager to 'learn' (mind it - they just did not know) about one or the other brahmin rituals like sandhy, tarpanam, etc., the majority do not seem to bother and their tangential contact points with brahmin ways of life are nil, practically. On the contrary, I see many IT professionals who drink, smoke, eat NV food as though it is unavoidable for a healthy living, and have girl friends and some also are in living-in arrangements.

As regards brahmins not generally committing murders, my analysis is that basically we tabras are a cowardly people and will flee the moment there is any need for physical aggression.

Shri Vaagmi refers to Serena Williams, I think, but that gesturing has become more a sine qua non with most sportspersons, even if they are on the lowest ranks. Once they score a point or make one good play, almost all the fellows/fellowis will do that; they try to imitate Tarzan, the ape-man or something like that. Hence, it has very little to do with any supremacist feelings, imo.

What is relevant is that we tabras, as a community, have knowingly departed from the ways of life of some 100 or 200 years ago, in our pursuit of two square meals a day, and, in that journey we have become completely servile to rank materialism. But some of the people cling on to some or the other ritual/s, texts, etc., and consider that they truly represent unalloyed samples of pure brahmanas. That is tragic and, at the same time, comical.

Dear Sangom,

Why dont you first define the correct brahmin way of life instead of picking holes in what I have mentioned as some of the aspects of a brahmin way of life?

The minority few who eat pork do not represent the majority of successful IT professionals who are brahmins. Please be honest and be fair to the youngsters. Do you mean to say that all the IT pros who are brahmins are all eating pork, drinking liquour etc., etc.,?

It is funny to read your argument that brahmins are cowards and so they can not commit a murder. I do not want to comment any more on this line of argument adopted by you as it may lead to unnecessary exchange. The members here will judge you appropriately from your words.

I do not find any thing wrong with a little bit of pride which is a manifestation of self esteem and satisfaction that comes from achievements and prevailing over a powerful opponent. Some here call it supremacist load.

We have departed from keeping the external identities of a brahmin. The core which is made of good values, unique culture, a stubbornness in sticking to good principles despite sustained relentless attacks, and many such things are all in tact. Not only that they are being passed on to successive generations. If you want to call these brahmins as impure one so be it. No problem. They know at least what is valuable.

 

[tks]

Games People Play - by Dr Eric Berne

Sri Vaagmi

I am reminded of a book called "Games People Play" by Dr Eric Berne after seeing some of your exchanges with few people. If you browsed past thread will see many repeats of your exchanges

A student of Dr Berne's specific approach to understanding people will find wealth of research information in our forum ...

Regards

 

[zebra16]

Now that the active combatants of this thread appear to have retreated to their original positions and this thread is most likely to be moving to archives, I think I can ask the question that I have wanted to ask when this thread was started.

Was the title of the thread appropriate? Do we not cremate the dead (bar the certain exceptions)? Is digging necessary before cremation? How much we have subconsciously changed to the present day scenario that we do not even remember the name of one and the last of our samskaras, viz. the antim samskaram and use expressions like digging the grave etc.

Why do the "reformers" want still to brow beat the "conservatives" ?

 

[vgane]

Now that the active combatants of this thread appear to have retreated to their original positions and this thread is most likely to be moving to archives, I think I can ask the question that I have wanted to ask when this thread was started.

Was the title of the thread appropriate? Do we not cremate the dead (bar the certain exceptions)? Is digging necessary before cremation? How much we have subconsciously changed to the present day scenario that we do not even remember the name of one and the last of our samskaras, viz. the antim samskaram and use expressions like digging the grave etc.

Why do the "reformers" want still to brow beat the "conservatives" ?

Dear Zebraji,

Digging one's own grave is an idiom which means figuratively to be responsible for one's downfall or ruin

I was trying to highlight the impact of IC/IR marriages on Tambrahm's population...

There was no better & apt word that I could find

This thread was started by me so that Tambrahm's realise that the pit that they are digging will be their undoing

Hope this clears your doubt

 

[sarang]

A broadside and irrelevant observation as usual. Perhaps closer hobnobbing with select nambudri brothers has lead to a coloured and distorted view and making wise cracks. It is neither tragic or comical.

Brahmins in the past too have adapted well to the prevailing regal, political and cultural scenario all through history. Brahmins have migrated to all parts of Bharatavarsha, served under all types of kings (Kshatriya, shudra, vaishya, brahmana, muslim and christian kings), learnt, taught, and propagated all types of knowlege current during that period, were active in local and temple administration, part of village conflict resolve system, respecting and helping all cultures to develop and evolve without putting down anything. And they did all this without giving up their swadharma, acharam, rituals and learning. I am sure it is possible to follow a similar life today too without giving up todays' vocations too. I am sure, after the initial flush of western lifestyle, wish to emulate the west in everything, many if not all, will return to the basics, like the prodigal son. I have seen quite a few after a decent life in the west (self included) realise the values of our traditions and way of life; it is not difficult to lead a life with a brahminical mindset without giving up family and social obligations, and comforts. Everyone can practice to his comfort level, but it is essential to first read, learn and understand what is available.

What is relevant is that we tabras, as a community, have knowingly departed from the ways of life of some 100 or 200 years ago, in our pursuit of two square meals a day, and, in that journey we have become completely servile to rank materialism. But some of the people cling on to some or the other ritual/s, texts, etc., and consider that they truly represent unalloyed samples of pure brahmanas. That is tragic and, at the same time, comical.

 

[renuka]

Was the title of the thread appropriate? Do we not cremate the dead (bar the certain exceptions)? Is digging necessary before cremation?

Dear Zebra ji,

Actually this question was on my mind the very first time I saw the title.

In fact I wanted to ask the same question too but then something made me stop..cos if I say
"Is the community cremating its own dead??"...Then all hell could break loose cos cremation of the dead is the Dharma of the another Varna..so I did not want to create any more Varna fights!LOL

But since you brought up the topic I could not help saying what I had in my mind.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Zebra ji,

Actually this question was on my mind the very first time I saw the title.
In fact I wanted to ask the same question too but then something made me stop..cos if I say
"Is the community cremating its own dead??"...Then all hell could break loose cos cremation of the dead is the Dharma of the another Varna..so I did not want to create any more Varna fights!LOL
But since you brought up the topic I could not help saying what I had in my mind.

Dear Renuka Madam,

Now a days it is very simple. The body is put on a pocelain plate and moved into the core of an oven. Power is switched on. Wait for a few minutes. You get the whole thing reduced to a heap of ash put in an appropriate container and given to you to take home. So in this who did the actual cremation? The electrical Engineer who set up the crematorium? The technician who switches on the power? It is very difficult to determine. So we can all shout "down with varnasramadharma" or sing "நம் வாழ்வில் காணா சமரசம் உலாவும் இடமே" and carry the technician on our shoulders.
Thanks.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka Madam,

Now a days it is very simple. The body is put on a pocelain plate and moved into the core of an oven. Power is switched on. Wait for a few minutes. You get the whole thing reduced to a heap of ash put in an appropriate container and given to you to take home. So in this who did the actual cremation? The electrical Engineer who set up the crematorium? The technician who switches on the power? It is very difficult to determine. So we can all shout "down with varnasramadharma" or sing "நம் வாழ்வில் காணா சமரசம் உலாவும் இடமே" and carry the technician on our shoulders.
Thanks.

Dear Sir,

Agni did the cremation..it is the Dharma of fire to burn!

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Sir,

Agni did the cremation..it is the Dharma of fire to burn!

Yeah. Energy cremated energy.