Is the Community digging its own grave

[kunjuppu]

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Kunjuppu your #371:



But why have you missed the intensity in the words that virtually threatened another member in this forum with physical harm by saying that people are brave only to come here and present their ideas against EVR in the anonimity of the forum? It is something like telling "let me know your name and whereabouts. I will thrash you". Why do you keep silent about this stinking state of mind which exhibits an immense capacity for violence and hatred? Come on friend be fair. I understand you hold EVR in great esteem. Thats okay. But to speak selectively about intensity here is something else. I do not want to add one more hypocrite to the crowd here.

dear vaagmi,

really i am perplexed here as i am not sure what you mean. i dont ever recall 'to thrash someone hiding in the anonymity of the forum'. most of the regulars are known to each other, and atleast through others, we know each others bonafide.

in that respects, you are new here, and i do not know enough of your antecedents or bonafide. no matter what, it is my wish to carry on a epithet free discussion. after all everyone has reasons for what they believe, for there is a history behind each life. why i am what i am, and similarly for you, is due to our life experiences values handed down and beliefs.

all we can do is to learn to appreciate differences, and not to change others or condemn them for their pov. hope this explains.

And what about the janitor there in US/Canada. Please ask him what he thinks about the world. It will be revealing.[/FONT][/COLOR]

the only ex janitor i personally know is a foreign student, who did well in life. most of these in toronto are immigrants of various nationalities, and their children, as a rule do well. there is no caste or heridatory janitoring or such. i think you know that.

 

[kunjuppu]

So it seems that there are some who cackle around and perhaps would willingly mix poison in the common well should they happen to agree with the cause. Does the end justify the means?

The die hard dravidianists probably secretly pay for "pariharams" to tickle thier fortunes in the next elections while paying lip service to evr so that the venom of hatred is kept alive.

How dumber can the dumb get?

not sure i understand all of this post

personally i have no affinity or sympathy for today's periarists. most of them, i find, are mid caste people. who use the name of periyar to suit their convenience, and who screw the dalits as much as they can. scratch their skin, and they are fascists to the core - brahmin hating among their other hobbies.

often, these are second rate in their own caste, ie failures, who need any stick or cane to hang on, in order to feel important. fortunately, these do not attract much attention.

by and large, there is no brahmin baiting, afaik, in both dmk or other dravidian parties. though elements of brahmin hatred, for their own purpose is there. we are a passe in tamil nadu, no longer perceived as a threat. what little influence we can, it is through the newspapers, but these too, pander to the popular opinions, and are far away from the elitist journals, these they were, when i was growing up, ie 50s and 60s.

there may be the odd brahmin joke, but the new generation, has brahmin friends, or married into brahmin families, and hardly in a position to mock their own relatives

the last periyarist holdover is veeramani, but he is more of joke. and is mired in corruption as he is trying to pass of periyar thidal and all of periyar assets to his sons. much to the chagrin of his fellow party men dk is now split and probably will split more.

changes....and overall i think, it has been to everyone's benefit.

 

[prasad1]

If the community can not dig its own grave,
we have esteemed members here on this site, who can help. If you want to rile and divide the Brahmin community, you just need that name.

Ghar ka Bhedi Lanka Dhaye.

Vibhisan the brother of Ravana, destroyed Lanka.

Similarly misguided Born Brahmins are enamored by this modern Ravana, and will divide the majority in this site.
We must ban that name from being uttered in this site agains. No good has ever come from discussing that s.. .. ##### for the Brahmin community, or Hindus, or Indians.

 

[zebra16]

If the community can not dig its own grave,
we have esteemed members here on this site, who can help. If you want to rile and divide the Brahmin community, you just need that name.

Ghar ka Bhedi Lanka Dhaye.

Vibhisan the brother of Ravana, destroyed Lanka.

Similarly misguided Born Brahmins are enamored by this modern Ravana, and will divide the majority in this site.
We must ban that name from being uttered in this site agains. No good has ever come from discussing that s.. .. ##### for the Brahmin community, or Hindus, or Indians.

But what to do? Some people have an intense intensity for intensive writing, re-writing, hashing and re-hashing periya purANam of ee ve raa and wash off the guilts of all brahmins (even of those who do not get the periodic bouts of this disease) for the supposed atrocities committed by manu putras in dinosaur age. For them sun became visible only after ee ve ra took the avatar.

 

[Nara]

But what to do? Some people have an intense intensity for intensive writing, re-writing, hashing and re-hashing periya purANam of ee ve raa ........

Dear zebra16, just to be sure, please note that 8 postings mentioning EVR or periyar were made before my first one mentioning EVR. Here is the list:

1. Post 37 vgane
2. Post 90 k
3. Post 138 tks
4. Post 168 K
5. Post 310 K
6. Post 316 vaagmi
7. Post 326 K
8. Post 328 vaagmi

I am not waiting, on the ready, to sing the praise of EVR. If you wish nobody should mention EVR's name or write anything about him, how about leaving him alone. If mindless drivel is continuously splattered around, then, sooner or later they will be called to account.

Why is that only Brahmins hate EVR so viscerally -- save an odd not brahmin person? The very mention of EVR is followed by a litany of insulting epithets, never fails. Brahmins just can't even bring themselves to take a critical look at what the man stood for and how transformative he was in the lives of so many people. Brahmins need to get over this hatred.

Anyway, I refuse to accept your charge that I "hash and re-hash periya purANam of ee ve raa".

regards ...

 

[prasad1]

Why would you bring the "gilded Photo of Hitler" to a Synagog, and expect it to be displayed there? Why would you take the "portrait of Martin Luther King" to KKK meeting?

If your aim is to provoke Tamil Brahmins, then only you bring about that name. What pleasure do you get by rubbing our collective nose in dirt?
You can do one better, by taking Mr. George Zimmerman to Trayvon Martin's funeral.

But that is exactly what you do every time and expect different results. How much more? and why?

If this is not Brahmin Bashing it is Brahmin Baiting.

 

[Nara]

Why would you bring the "gilded Photo of Hitler" to a Synagog, and expect it to be displayed there? Why would you take the "portrait of Martin Luther King" to KKK meeting?

prasad1, you need to take this up with vgane who first brought up EVR/Periyar and the other three who invoked his name or had discussion about him long before me. Take it up with them.

Also, I reject the comparisons you have made. Hitler was directly responsible for the murder of six million jews. EVR's rhetoric did not cause directly or indirectly the death of even one Brahmin. Further, for Brahmins, this forum is not like that of a Synagog for jews. Neither is it like a KKK meeting. This site is a virtual திண்ணை/meeting place to while away excess time members have in their hands. All are allowed, not just TBs. Anyone can start a discussion on any topic and interested members can join in and those without interest can stay away. There is even an Ignore feature in the Profile section and members can use it to block posts from those they just can't stand. However, if one chooses to enter a discussion, then they need to state their view and defend it with valid arguments.

Thank you ....

 

[renuka]

but all those brahminical ethics that people brazenly ignored and back into being now,

Vegetarianism/Teetotallers/Abstinence/Patience/Lifestyle and so on....

Dear Subramaniam Ji,

I would slightly beg to differ here in opinion.

Vegetarianism/Teetotallers/Abstinence/Patience/Lifestyle is not Brahminical Ethics alone I feel..no doubt majority of Brahmins practice what you have mentioned but many Non Brahmins/Non Indians and Non Hindus too practice what you wrote.

Vegetarians are of many types:

1)Those who are vegetarians becos of lifestyle.

2)Those who are vegetarian on grounds of compassion.

3)Some Oriental races are Vegans..who do not even drink Milk.

Ok next... not drinking and not smoking are also seen in almost all races in the world.

Drinking and smoking is not the lifestyle of every Non Brahmin.


Abstinence...here I do not know what you mean as in Abstinence from what??

If you are talking about Pre Marital Sex then let me tell you that many Non Hindu communities of Asia too view Virginity as a virtue.

Patience..this is also seen in any race.

So you were just describing desirable qualities that can be present in anyone from any part of the world.

I have seen many Chinese Non Buddhist Traditional Vegans who follow the above lifestyle and never even heard of the word Brahmin.

 

[biswa]

No,it is just a grading system not to insult.

well it is cold,hard logic the patronage of the state and responsibilities go hand in hand.

Sir, can I also ask a logical question? Which exam did you pass to achieve your grade?

 

[vgane]

I would like to bring the attention of the group to how Non brahmins view the IC/IR marriages...

The blogger was referred in an earlier post in our site

Intercaste marriage ? Social Justice or Social Bastardization | Senthilraja's blog

 

[renuka]

I would like to bring the attention of the group to how Non brahmins view the IC/IR marriages...

The blogger was referred in an earlier post in our site

Intercaste marriage ? Social Justice or Social Bastardization | Senthilraja's blog

Dear Sir,

This is the opinion of a person called Senthiraja who belongs to the Vellalar community.

His words do not represent all Non Brahmins cos many Non Brahmins have a more open mindset than his.

Not every Non Brahmin comes with such narrow mindsets that makes their ears meet.

I really do not understand what everyone wants to maintain so much as in terms of culture.

Love (as in Love for Humanity) is the only culture and hall mark of being human.

God..I would love to take this guy to a tour to the morgue and watch me do an autopsy on all types of humans and ask him to see if anyone differs!LOL

 

[zebra16]

Dear Sri Nara,

This is a broad based post and bears only tangential relevance to your original post. But it does require some answers or clarifications. So please grant some indulgence

Also, I reject the comparisons you have made. Hitler was directly responsible for the murder of six million jews. EVR's rhetoric did not cause directly or indirectly the death of even one Brahmin.

So are you concurring that the vileness varied only in the scale and size

Further, for Brahmins, this forum is not like that of a Synagog for jews. Neither is it like a KKK meeting. This site is a virtual திண்ணை/meeting place to while away excess time members have in their hands.

Wholeheartedly agree here. But why was the mention of bravery and safe confines of this forum etc. brought in earlier when it is just a thiNNai pechchu?

All are allowed, not just TBs. Anyone can start a discussion on any topic and interested members can join in and those without interest can stay away. There is even an Ignore feature in the Profile section and members can use it to block posts from those they just can't stand.

Werent some persons complaining about trolls and trolling? What made them not to utilise the facility of "ignore" button?

That said availability of ignore button facility is not a carte blanche for spammers to turn every thread into their personal fiefdom.

Regards

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear zebra16, just to be sure, please note that 8 postings mentioning EVR or periyar were made before my first one mentioning EVR. Here is the list:

1. Post 37 vgane
2. Post 90 k
3. Post 138 tks
4. Post 168 K
5. Post 310 K
6. Post 316 vaagmi
7. Post 326 K
8. Post 328 vaagmi

I am not waiting, on the ready, to sing the praise of EVR. If you wish nobody should mention EVR's name or write anything about him, how about leaving him alone. If mindless drivel is continuously splattered around, then, sooner or later they will be called to account.

Why is that only Brahmins hate EVR so viscerally -- save an odd not brahmin person? The very mention of EVR is followed by a litany of insulting epithets, never fails. Brahmins just can't even bring themselves to take a critical look at what the man stood for and how transformative he was in the lives of so many people. Brahmins need to get over this hatred.

Anyway, I refuse to accept your charge that I "hash and re-hash periya purANam of ee ve raa".

regards ...

Dear Mr. Nara,

1. You were indeed waiting in the ready to sing the praise of EVR as borne out by the facts which you have cleverly papered over. You did not come in until these eight posts were made because you had others singing the praise of EVR and you were enjoying it from the side lines. Please refer to post #308 of Kunjuppu. Mr. Nara,This is the limit of flasehood. I replied to this post by Kunjuppu and repudiated what was said there by him. Then you jumped in with your post #333 singing the praise of EVR and holding out a threat with your infamous words "There is no intellectual honesty or bravery in criticizing EVR from the safe confines of this forum where such trash talk will only receive applause". So you wanted me to be "brave" and give out my personal info while criticising EVR. You exhorted me to come out of "the safe confines of this forum" and prove that I have "intellectual honesty". Do you understand now what is the truth. Please answer to my point that your mind set is a stinking mindset.

Brahmins oppose EVR (hatred is beyond brahmins) because he hated brahmins. It is as simple as that. A cool and critical look at EVR has been taken by many brahmins and the conclusion has always been the same-that he was a rank hypocrite, a politician who was kicked up the stairs of political popularity by circumstance and time. Because you are again and again talking about the changes he brought about in the lives of people, please understand that time, the alchemist should be given the 99.99% credit for all those changes that have happened. If you need proof please read the editorial he wrote in his mouth piece news tabloid when the Kilvenmony incident happened in which poor agricultural labourers (women) and their children were burnt alive by Naidu landlords. EVR was a naidu/naicker and he had his sympathies for the landlords. The way you sing the praise of EVR I have only one conclusion. EVR was a rank hypocrite. You sing his praise again and again. Birds of the same feather flocking together perhaps. And the joke is that you are calling me a hypocrite.LOL.

 

[Vaagmi]

post # 382 by Nara:

Also, I reject the comparisons you have made. Hitler was directly responsible for the murder of six million jews. EVR's rhetoric did not cause directly or indirectly the death of even one Brahmin

Hitler was not directly responsible for all those murders. His deputies were executing his orders enthusiastically. EVR's rhetoric created mortal fear in the mnds of a hapless minority community. It is worse than murder. When a woman does not know when she will be subjected to mischievous groping in a public crowled place, A poor purohit when he was scared of having his tuft for fear that those few strands of worthless hair may be cut off while the resistance to that may end up in the head itself being cut off-you dont call these situations pleasant ones. They are near death experiences. EVR was directly responsible for this mischief. A hatred monger can never be a political ikon. If he is an ikon for some we will conclude that they are psychologically off the normal track. Simply put, they have a few nuts in their system loose.

Further, for Brahmins, this forum is not like that of a Synagog for jews. Neither is it like a KKK meeting. This site is a virtual திண்ணை/meeting place to while away excess time members have in their hands. All are allowed, not just TBs.

This is perhaps the reason why you came with your gem of that stinking statement about "safe confines" and "bravery".

 

[Vaagmi]

Nara in # 333:

The elementary school drop out went on to change the way people thought about themselves, a kind of "I am a Man" message out of Memphis, TN. His name and achievements are well known all over India and abroad as well. It is no wonder then UNESCO described EVR aka தந்தை பெரியார் as "the prophet of the new age, the Socrates of South East Asia, father of social reform movement and arch enemy of ignorance, superstitions, meaningless customs and base manners".

Vaagmi in his reply in #338:

1. “The elementary school drop out went on to change the way people thought about themselves”-your words. Yes they, the people, all thought about themselves as belonging to a certain caste. That their caste(thevar, naidus, vanniars etc.,) is superior to the caste of panchamans. That they can kill and maim in order to preserve the purity of their castes. You need proof? Please google(you enjoy googling I know) Vachati and Keelvenmony for just samples. If you have the time and inclination you can go further with Uththapuram, Dharmapuri riots, Ilavarasan etc. and enlighten yourselves with the success of EVR in making people think about themselves and not about the society and their place in the society. “His name is well known all over India and abroad”-your words again. Every notorious element can become well known in the world if he gets kicked up the stairs in politics. That does not mean anything to right thinking people. It just means that notoriety and popularity are two words people use recklessly. தந்தை means father. What a shame. So you are saying he was called Socrates of South East Asia. I have an old book published in Tamil which calls the Late C.N.Annadurai the Socrates of India and goes further to call him தென்னாட்டு பெர்னாட்ஷா, இன்னாட்டு இங்கர்சால் etc., The Unesco and you are going to cause a minor “கோட்டைக்குள் குத்து வெட்டு” by calling EVR the Socrates while there is already a strong claimant to that name.

2.Your “Hugely respected great reformer” was actually a hypocrite of the first order. I will give just two items as proof. Though this has been discussed in this forum repeatedly, I reproduce so that the lies do not go unchallenged here. 1. EVR opposed tooth and nail the studying of Hindi in Tamilnadu. Even as he was breathing fire in public forums and his captive news paper mouth pieces, he had quietly let out a huge residential property belonging to him in Erode at a very nominal monthly rent to Hindi Prachar Sabha to conduct classes in Hindi for students of Erode. Proof-please read the autobiography of Maraimalai Adigal. 2. He used to talk very eloquently about women’s freedom including the right to women’s sexuality. He at the ripe age of 60+ married a very young girl and justified it by specious arguments. There are many more. Those who are interested can google and find. Are you going to accept that EVR was a hypocrite or are you going to still insist that it is all caste centric nonsense dished out? Where is your intellectual honesty?

3.“There is no intellectual honesty or bravery in criticizing EVR from the safe confines of this forum where such trash talk will only receive applause”-these are your words. I find no difference between your these words and the “ஏய் வெண்ணை! விளக்கெண்ணை!!. பேரு சொல்லி எழுதுடா மொண்ணை.!!! வர்ரியா ஒத்தைக்கொத்தை ....த்தா தூ” kind of responses that we come across in many EVR forums. I interpret your words as revealing a fanatic intolerance and a secret desire in the depth of your mind to thrash black and blue physically all the members here with an opposite view. That is bad. And that is quite bad for a “professor”. The dividing line between hatred and violence is ever so fine. I mean mental violence here. Please don’t become a hypocrite by trying to reinterpret your words. We have understood you alright. The words “bravery” and “safe confines” are revealing the mind set that is stinking up to heavens.

This is a request made to honourable members of this forum:

Please advise MR.Nara to stop his put downs and come to the point and answer the questions that stand begging for an answer in the above reply of Vaagmi.

Thanks.

 

[renuka]

This is a request made to honourable members of this forum:

Please advise MR.Nara to stop his put downs and come to the point and answer the questions that stand begging for an answer in the above reply of Vaagmi.

Thanks.

Dear Sir,

If all questions are answered right away then Forum wont be so much fun..some amount of suspense is needed and like how we wait for the outcome of the next episode of a Megaaaaa Serial.

 

[sarang]

Thinnai meeting is fine when the discussions and cheetu kacheri are neutral and non offensive. But, when some members fill their mouth with vethilai and puhaiyal, munch it and spit all over the thinnai and on the street below,and using a brahmana's thinnai to abuse his lifestyle, ancestors and everything considered sacred by him, and glorifying his sworn enemy who has made no secret of his wish to destroy brahmins - why one should tolerate such souls.

Brahmins have nothing to do with untouchability in the past or today. Varna theory and practice is not the exclusive prerogative of brahmins alone; all bharatavasis, those belonging to varnas or outside it lived in reasonable harmony. Today's brahmins must resist such attempts to hoist the blame on brahmins.

 

[sarang]

Born in a family gives one some rights and privileges. Like Prince charles - I am a prince now, hope to become the king of england and commonwealth and work my way upwards.

mukesh ambanis's sons will inherit his empire whether they make the grades or not.

Rupert murdoch has started the process of divorcing his young wife. One report said that cracks appeared when he said in a tv show that his daughters by the current wife will get only monetary compensation and will not get any voting rights in his media empire. Mrs. murdoch has even changed her lawyer who prepared the prenuptial contract. Both have engaged poerful lawyers and divorce is expected to be messy.

Just ramblings on inherited status and acquired grades.

Sir, can I also ask a logical question? Which exam did you pass to achieve your grade?

 

[sarang]

Senthilkumar is one of many non brahmins who believes in varnasrama dharma. Does that make him narrow minded? He has many followers from all varnas and from all parts of bharat.

He is in tune with the culture of bharat; calling him names is not good. At least scan the books he has read.

Dear Sir,

This is the opinion of a person called Senthiraja who belongs to the Vellalar community.

His words do not represent all Non Brahmins cos many Non Brahmins have a more open mindset than his.

Not every Non Brahmin comes with such narrow mindsets that makes their ears meet.

I really do not understand what everyone wants to maintain so much as in terms of culture.

Love (as in Love for Humanity) is the only culture and hall mark of being human.

God..I would love to take this guy to a tour to the morgue and watch me do an autopsy on all types of humans and ask him to see if anyone differs!LOL

 

[renuka]

Senthilkumar is one of many non brahmins who believes in varnasrama dharma. Does that make him narrow minded? He has many followers from all varnas and from all parts of bharat.

He is in tune with the culture of bharat; calling him names is not good. At least scan the books he has read.

Dear Sarang ji,


Nope..I do not think I will want to scan any books.

The language used in the article is not impressive either..using words like Bastardization etc.

I know how some Non Brahmins think too.

Have enough of such types out here too who think no end of themselves.

It is easy to talk about the glory of Varna system when one is either a Brahmin or a Middle Caste....try taking a look at the Acid Attack Thread where a Dalit girl suffered Acid Burns to her face and no one wanted to help her cos she is a Dalit.

Try to understand how a Dalit would feel?

When Brahmins are being treated unfairly by Quota system it hurts isn't it?

So try to understand what being unfairly treated means.

For me I see a fellow Hindu as a human only..mindset has to change..we have lost enough Hindus to other religions becos of this Varna system that denied some humans their self respect.

So as a responsible Hindu I would never want any human being to undergo gradation and classification for maintaining pride and prejudice.

I have had enough Non Brahmins out here where I stay tell me off on my face that only a person who has no pride will think of marrying outside his/her caste..those who have some Manam(pride) will keep their lineage pure.

So you see for such people I just tell them buzz off cos intercaste marriage happens between 2 humans and not as if a Dinosaur married a Cow!

So Sarang ji..too bad yaar...I would not want to scan any books.

 

[kunjuppu]

I would like to bring the attention of the group to how Non brahmins view the IC/IR marriages...

The blogger was referred in an earlier post in our site

Intercaste marriage ? Social Justice or Social Bastardization | Senthilraja's blog

instead of generalizing, can we just say one non brahmin.

senthil raja used to be a member here, and align himself with the most traditional of values with the members here. he supports almost all the planks which tambrams traditionally want.... if i am not mistaken.

 

[kunjuppu]

Thinnai meeting is fine when the discussions and cheetu kacheri are neutral and non offensive. But, when some members fill their mouth with vethilai and puhaiyal, munch it and spit all over the thinnai and on the street below,and using a brahmana's thinnai to abuse his lifestyle, ancestors and everything considered sacred by him, and glorifying his sworn enemy who has made no secret of his wish to destroy brahmins - why one should tolerate such souls.

Brahmins have nothing to do with untouchability in the past or today. Varna theory and practice is not the exclusive prerogative of brahmins alone; all bharatavasis, those belonging to varnas or outside it lived in reasonable harmony. Today's brahmins must resist such attempts to hoist the blame on brahmins.

sarang,

untouchability was part of our culture re practising it, as late as the 1950s. in my part of malabar, certain castes when they passed by they yululued, or yodelled, to announce their passing, so that high caste pattars or nairs'e eyes do not fall on them.

my own maternal grand father - a lawyer, the untouchables stayed atleast 10 feet away from him, removed the thundu and placed it over their mouth and spoke through it.

the barber monthly to shave my great aunt' head, and one day i touched him. immediately was told to go to the bathroom, and a bucket of water dumped over me..

i have heard of so many motta paattis, near kapali temple, screaming 'othippo othippo' at the NB who bathed in the same tank nearby

the thottis, the cash was dropped from a distance of a few feet, or left on the ground, and they came and picked it up.

even in my own home, different set of glasses for the servants. ..

today i hope we dont do those things. apart from being wrong, they are illegal and banned by the constitution of india. but we cannot re write history. it happened in those days, and the memories of those acts are still raw with many many groups. it may take time to heal, or never at all. who knows.

but we cannot and should not deny it happened. that we took no part in it is true for most of us. but we inherited the memories. didn't we?

if all has been hunky dory, would we have the so many social issues that we have now? the only relieving thing for us, is that the current problems between dalits and vanniars (& their sympathizers) is that no brahmin has made any stupid statement to attract unwanted attention. i pray they dont, for obvious reasons.

narayana guru did encourage likewise reforms in kerala, except he took the path and appeal through religion. but the message was the same. abolition of caste and upliftment of the dalits and lower castes.

re 'someone spewing with a mouthful of beetle leaves', periyar happened. no matter whether we consider him a reformer or rogue, he has indelibly changed not only tamil nadu, but has been instrumental in the rise of many political figures up north including mayawati, who pay respects to him. that periyar was flawed is beyond doubt.

he is probably one of the few leaders, who told his followers not to follow him blind, but view every one of his views, and be selective, to what is appropriate. personally, i like only his calls for small families, female education and casteless society. his crude antibrahminism, has also turned me off. but no matter what, he is an elephant in the room. not talking about him or ignoring, will not wish him away or his impact.

today, periyar is passe. and with the passing of MK, even less of periyar will be heard. that is the way life is. but changes that happened, are permanent.

many a times i wondered, why, with so much influence and erudition, our community did not produce a mass based reformer, who could have enforced the obvious and needed changes, and brought all hindu castes and dalits together. 'what could have been' is among the saddest words...in any language.

i think i have said enough on this topic...and fear regurgitating the same. the purpose of this post was to clarify a stand, that not everyone has a blanket approval of periyar, but everyone is impacted by him, one way or the other.

thank you.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Kunjuppu,

Your post #397:

many a times i wondered, why, with so much influence and erudition, our community did not produce a mass based reformer, who could have enforced the obvious and needed changes, and brought all hindu castes and dalits together. 'what could have been' is among the saddest words...in any language.

In TN a mass based reformer can not be a brahmin because:

1. The middle castes such as Mudaliyars, Naidus, Thevars etc., are far more cunning. They will never allow a brahmin to become a popular reformer. Their stake in the status quo is too high. These two sentences speak the total story of dravidian movements in TN.

2. When some politician tried to be a reformer and introduced a harmless but path breaking education reform he was hounded out and the reform was trashed calling it "kulakkalvi" scheme. And we have among brahmins who would shout at the top of their voice that that educational reform was indeed trash without understanding it.

3. We will for ever be left with what would have been only as long as panchamans do not get a fire brand reformer, takes brahmins on his side and challenge the entrenched middle castes. My heart bleeds when I see the two tumbler system still in existence in my village, how the dominant middle caste men in the village expect the panchaman women folk to work in the field during the day and entertain them in the bed in the night. It is so bad that it has become a natural right of these stupid fellows. When clashes erupt when a worm decides to react, the local police intervenes to put down every thing to keep the law and order in tact-whatever that means.

Thanks.

 

[auh]

sarang,

untouchability was part of our culture re practising it, as late as the 1950s. in my part of malabar, certain castes when they passed by they yululued, or yodelled, to announce their passing, so that high caste pattars or nairs'e eyes do not fall on them.

my own maternal grand father - a lawyer, the untouchables stayed atleast 10 feet away from him, removed the thundu and placed it over their mouth and spoke through it.

the barber monthly to shave my great aunt' head, and one day i touched him. immediately was told to go to the bathroom, and a bucket of water dumped over me..

i have heard of so many motta paattis, near kapali temple, screaming 'othippo othippo' at the NB who bathed in the same tank nearby

the thottis, the cash was dropped from a distance of a few feet, or left on the ground, and they came and picked it up.

even in my own home, different set of glasses for the servants. ..

today i hope we dont do those things. apart from being wrong, they are illegal and banned by the constitution of india. but we cannot re write history. it happened in those days, and the memories of those acts are still raw with many many groups. it may take time to heal, or never at all. who knows.

but we cannot and should not deny it happened. that we took no part in it is true for most of us. but we inherited the memories. didn't we?

if all has been hunky dory, would we have the so many social issues that we have now? the only relieving thing for us, is that the current problems between dalits and vanniars (& their sympathizers) is that no brahmin has made any stupid statement to attract unwanted attention. i pray they dont, for obvious reasons.

narayana guru did encourage likewise reforms in kerala, except he took the path and appeal through religion. but the message was the same. abolition of caste and upliftment of the dalits and lower castes.

re 'someone spewing with a mouthful of beetle leaves', periyar happened. no matter whether we consider him a reformer or rogue, he has indelibly changed not only tamil nadu, but has been instrumental in the rise of many political figures up north including mayawati, who pay respects to him. that periyar was flawed is beyond doubt.

he is probably one of the few leaders, who told his followers not to follow him blind, but view every one of his views, and be selective, to what is appropriate. personally, i like only his calls for small families, female education and casteless society. his crude antibrahminism, has also turned me off. but no matter what, he is an elephant in the room. not talking about him or ignoring, will not wish him away or his impact.

today, periyar is passe. and with the passing of MK, even less of periyar will be heard. that is the way life is. but changes that happened, are permanent.

many a times i wondered, why, with so much influence and erudition, our community did not produce a mass based reformer, who could have enforced the obvious and needed changes, and brought all hindu castes and dalits together. 'what could have been' is among the saddest words...in any language.

i think i have said enough on this topic...and fear regurgitating the same. the purpose of this post was to clarify a stand, that not everyone has a blanket approval of periyar, but everyone is impacted by him, one way or the other.

thank you.

Quite a novel there, you have scripted, much of what seems to be the view through your eyes.

I do not support untouchability, but I will not mock the older generation for what they did. Probably, hygiene was a big issue in those days, and as a routine, the distance, covering their mouth, etc were practised.

Definitely, the ill treated would nurse a grouse, but even now, most of the NBs would not mingle with a brahmin freely if they had consumed NV food etc, as they feel that they defile the "concept" by which a brahmin lives. As you have observed some of what you wrote above, this, I had observed with those who frequent our house.

Let me also gently remind you that untouchability is not equal to brahmins or brahmin culture, and neither is it restricted to hinduism alone. Elsewhere, people shouted hoarse that rapes occur as men want to dominate women. Well then, for those who accept such logic, can we not apply a modified version of that here?

Muslims from TN work with me here. They have some classifications, and for example, Lebbai is considered inferior by the other "superior". Just mentioned it so that people need not get carried away by the thought that only Indian past or the Hindu past or the Brahmin past carries some baggages.

I would have probably much appreciated if you had emphasised on the concept of equality without touching a person who spread hate against a particular group, but since you did what you did, the message, at least for me, does not carry much reliability.

Yes, impact it did, as in a smaller version of Hitler... I care the least for those words that trumphet it as some kind of reform.

 

[Nara]

....This is a broad based post and bears only tangential relevance to your original post. But it does require some answers or clarifications. So please grant some indulgence

Of course , and I seek your indulgence as well

So are you concurring that the vileness varied only in the scale and size

zebra16, please, prasad1 is the one who made this comparison and I tried to show how ridiculous the comparison is. I am not concurring with anything. If these Brahmins are honest they would see that on Hitler's side there was willful murder of millions and on EVR's side there was ZERO death (not even death let alone murder).

But why was the mention of bravery and safe confines of this forum etc. brought in earlier when it is just a thiNNai pechchu?

Is there any compelling reason why I can't mention that because this is thiNNai pechchu? I don't understand, why not?

Let me explain anyway. Yes, EVR indulged in tough and harsh rhetoric against Brahmins, but how would that make him equal to Hitler. I have seen many Brahmins make such a comparison time and time again. They do this only from the safe confines of Brahmin-only gathering or hiding behind the anonymity of internet forums. I find these Brahmins who make baseless and incendiary comments about EVR only in these circumstances and never in the open intellectually dishonest and cowardly. This is why I made that comment. Even here, even in this TB forum, where one can remain anonymous if they so wish, they can only make absurd and outrageous statements without providing a decent argument.

There is a huge archive of EVR's writing available for free online. How many have bothered to read at least some of them and debate what he says. I know what these Brahmins will say, why, I don't care what this hate-monger wrote. These are the people who don't see any value in reading history in general, let alone a particular historical figure, and yet they don't hesitate to make sweeping condemnation about the man. I find such behavior intellectually dishonest.

I am willing to have intellectually honest debate on EVR and his contributions to Tamil society. But I know I can't have such a debate here as there is so much visceral hatred for the man that some even don't want anybody to mention his name.

Werent some persons complaining about trolls and trolling? What made them not to utilise the facility of "ignore" button?

That said availability of ignore button facility is not a carte blanche for spammers to turn every thread into their personal fiefdom.

dear zebra1, there is a huge difference and I think you know it. prasad1 wanted me to self-censor and not talk about EVR at all because that would hurt the feeling of the members here. My comment was in response to that. Now, why K did not use the Ignore feature, I don't know, but if I am allowed a guess I think it was probably because he wanted to participate in the discussion and not ignore anybody.

regards ....