Reservation for Brahmins

[RVR]

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Dr Jambu Sir,

I have a Tamil book written by the promoter of Hatsun foods namely `சாதிக்கலாம் வாங்க' `Let us achieve it'. I think he belongs to Nadar community.

http://www.hatsun.com/

The promoter has not attended any college and doesn't have an `MBA' degree after his name.

He has written his own story of how he built the ice cream business against multinationals like `Unilever' and other companies.

Personally I didn't work under anybody throughout my life and I am a self made person I belong to an ordinary agriculturist family and migrated to Chennai from the village after basic degree. I was able to further qualify through part time studies.Traditionally we were not rich and my father has to sell almost entire agricultural holdings to perform marriage of my sisters. Along with my elder brother, I promoted a Small scale industry which we are still running successfully. Now we have a Government of India, Ministry of Science and Technology approved Research and Development unit having few global patents and also a manufacturing unit supplying critical parts to the automobile industry.

It is shear determination and proper application required to make any individual successful. Any amount of outside support will not make an individual successful.

All the best

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Yes I know Even Lion Dates story is great You should be focused and work towards it. My 1 son after his IIT MBA in Columbia university. His wife is from Bits Pilani and Ph.D from,IIM Calcutta After spending few years globally they are in Bangalore She is with Infosys in a fairly higher level My son is on his own venture after resigning from Wipro Wife is supportive Now they have to slog to make it big. This how you start and if successful give employment to others. This is wealth creation I wish them all success They are bold confident unlike our generation we were risk averse As parents we should not discourage them
I see lot of similarities between Brahmins and Jews They are pushed But never can be crushed can never perish


Jamburay2:

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri sangom, Greetings!

I think you meant to say "...centuries-old caste based repression can be redressed in a caste-blind fashion..." (emphasis mine).

Yes, in fact I completely mangled what I intended to say. However, given my track record here I hope people understood what I was trying to say just like you have done so and pointed out to me. Thank you.

Since focusing on the correct, deserving social group will mean reevaluation of which groups now require special affirmative action, the political will may not be there to do so.

In fact, the criteria I listed are not mine, I am not that smart. I took the trouble of reading the much maligned Mandal Commission report and these are the criteria they recommend, to be used to determined which castes must receive educational reservation.

Much of the opposition to reservation comes from visceral reaction to perceived victimhood. This feeling itself is based on an inflated sense of merit and entitlement.

Cheers!

 

[drb]

The reality today is that even migration is not happening as per merit. Overseas placement could be arranged very easily in Corporates and so corruption has been Globalized by India. Sir, if you run away from the problem, it will land more severely at the doors of your wards! That is not happening for people like you run away.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you. I have been in a academic setting abroad for a long time. People get in based on merit alone. I am not aware of any corporate based on reservation (if that is what you are saying).

Agree, I ran away from the issue. But it is not something that I have absolute control over. Can I (alone) change the corrupt politicians? Nope. I ran to better place where they respected and supported my merit and as well nourished. And by doing so, I made sure, my kids - get their due credit when they are ready.

 

[prasanth1]

Instead adopting divide and rule policy being applied by Government on its own citizens based on caste, religion etc.

This is not quite accurate. In order to adopt a divide-and-rule, one must divide. However, the government has not "divided" anything. The divisions were already in place. They were already enforced for hundreds of years, benefiting some communities and causing unfortunate circumstances for others.

 

[uvsharma]

Why don't unite and rule policy could be adopted. Past is past and will never come back.

Atleast attempts could be made to unite all citizens.

This is not quite accurate. In order to adopt a divide-and-rule, one must divide. However, the government has not "divided" anything. The divisions were already in place. They were already enforced for hundreds of years, benefiting some communities and causing unfortunate circumstances for others.

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Why don't unite and rule policy could be adopted. Past is past and will never come back. At least attempts could be made to unite all citizens.

This is sane and should be attempted Otherwise the result is what is happening now, as you can see Manu is replaced by Mandal. Disadvantaged are there in every caste and religion Only they should be helped out Why special educational loans for minority? Is poverty monopoly of minorities? I now understand what my mother used to say கட்டிகொடுத்த சோறு will it lost for ever? You should make your own சோறு when it is exhausted. This is some thing which you have heard so often Teach them to catch a fish! Jambu:attention:

 

[prasanth1]

Atleast attempts could be made to unite all citizens.

The question is, do all citizens want to unite? In fact, to make it simpler, do all members of this forum want to unite with the rest of the state, destroy the notion of caste, and fully embrace others? The answer, realistically, is: a certain amount maybe would, a certain amount wouldn't. Are you prepared to deal with the results of what it truly means to "unite all citizens", or is this just something you would say on the internet? Is this just an opportunistic request, based solely on the negative side effects you experience from reservation?

Let's look at the situation objectively: obviously there is absolutely no question that merit should be more important than artificial reservations based on caste in an *IDEAL* world. Yet things based on caste have defined our society for hundreds of years. Millions of people, thanks to this historical system, are born into situations where they cannot even hope to compete for education. So is a merit system going to help those who are disadvantaged from the beginning?

It is easy for a those of us that benefited from those distinctions to become moral in the year 2010 when things start to turn against us. But isn't this opportunism? We reap the benefits for centuries, and then when that same system makes it harder for us, we put the blame on others. I agree with you, past is past. If there's one thing I've learned about the world, it's that only people who are united are successful. States that are built on fragmented subgroups that are suspicious of each other can NEVER succeed. I would love to say "past is past" and do as you say. But I wonder how sincere this would be across the community.

I should introduce myself, since I have not posted here before, and make it clear my background, I am from a non-traditional, liberal family when it comes to caste interaction. I have read this forum for many months, unsure of whether I should interject with my opinions or how people would respond to them. This is my test run. Let's see how it goes.

 

[sangom]

The reality today is that even migration is not happening as per merit. Overseas placement could be arranged very easily in Corporates and so corruption has been Globalized by India. Migration patterns are also showing community bias and so soon Reservation will become an issue in immigration also in near future. Sir, if you run away from the problem, it will land more severely at the doors of your wards!

If you study the problem of Reservation in India, the solution to all the ailments come only when Brahmins demand Reservation. That is not happening for people like you run away.

I was given to understand that with sufficient money, scholarships can be instituted in some of the US universities and the nominee for such scholarship can also be decided beforehand. From some reliable sources I have also heard that for the last few years our Govt. officers at the highest level demand that their children get such placements as quid pro quo for favours made to industrialists and other money bags. This way, it is very difficult to prove graft charges against them. Don't know how far this is true. But I feel Harini is referring to this newfangled phenomenon.

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

"Yet things based on caste have defined our society for hundreds of years. Millions of people, thanks to this historical system, are born into situations where they cannot even hope to compete for education. So is a merit system going to help those who are disadvantaged from the beginning?"

Do you suggest Mandal instead of Manu for hundreds of years in future ? This is the only way by which they can raise or pull themselves up? Jambu:crazy:

 

[sangom]

The question is, do all citizens want to unite? In fact, to make it simpler, do all members of this forum want to unite with the rest of the state, destroy the notion of caste, and fully embrace others? The answer, realistically, is: a certain amount maybe would, a certain amount wouldn't. Are you prepared to deal with the results of what it truly means to "unite all citizens", or is this just something you would say on the internet? Is this just an opportunistic request, based solely on the negative side effects you experience from reservation?

Let's look at the situation objectively: obviously there is absolutely no question that merit should be more important than artificial reservations based on caste in an *IDEAL* world. Yet things based on caste have defined our society for hundreds of years. Millions of people, thanks to this historical system, are born into situations where they cannot even hope to compete for education. So is a merit system going to help those who are disadvantaged from the beginning?

It is easy for a those of us that benefited from those distinctions to become moral in the year 2010 when things start to turn against us. But isn't this opportunism? We reap the benefits for centuries, and then when that same system makes it harder for us, we put the blame on others. I agree with you, past is past. If there's one thing I've learned about the world, it's that only people who are united are successful. States that are built on fragmented subgroups that are suspicious of each other can NEVER succeed. I would love to say "past is past" and do as you say. But I wonder how sincere this would be across the community.

I should introduce myself, since I have not posted here before, and make it clear my background, I am from a non-traditional, liberal family when it comes to caste interaction. I have read this forum for many months, unsure of whether I should interject with my opinions or how people would respond to them. This is my test run. Let's see how it goes.

Dear Prasanth,

Greetings ! People like you are necessarily required in this forum. You have expressed my very thoughts on the reservations issue, perhaps more lucidly than I would have. My congrats for that.

When I see our people (TBs) calling foul about the reservations on one pretext or the other, their mainstay being "we did not do those Manuite atrocities, so why we should suffer", I hang my head in shame, thinking how selfish and against Dharma these people can get for them to shout like this while they themselves gladly listen to the various devious and opportunistic acts of Krishna described in the Mahabharata and Bhagavata justified because of karma of past births, curses, and so on, although, on the face of it, the concerned victim did not do anything wrong. Killing Ekalavya before Bharata yuddha is one example. There are many more such which will only waste space here. On the other extreme there are cases like that of Ajamila who gets rewarded by just one last second utterance of God's name, though he was calling his son, and not God. These people exclaim that it was due to the good karma of Ajamila for several past births. In the same way, is it not possible that the souls which have been born as brahmins now have had the curse of the Dalits on them for the past so many births, that they have come to suffer reservation going against them now (God is great, since he has not yet turned the wheel upside down completely and made the brahmins ostracized for all inhuman menial work for the rest of the society), or, that the present day beneficiaries of the reservation system have come to earn that benefit on account of their sufferings of the past ever so many lives and the punya (merit) earned as a result?

In this case they either conveniently forget their oft-cited sloka, "yadA yadA hi dharmasya..." or, think that they (and not God) are the authorities (having composed the sloka and put it in the mouth of God) who will decide what is "dharmasya gLaaniH" for God to take orders from them and come down as the next avatara!!

People who don't accept the above argument should be true enough to not accept any of the justifications for the actions of the avataras also; otherwise their hypocrisy will be open for all to see.

 

[sangom]

Do you suggest Mandal instead of Manu for hundreds of years in future ? This is the only way by which they can raise or pull themselves up? Jambu

Yes, I would. At least for another fifty years more as the next step.

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

'Yes, I would. At least for another fifty years more as the next step."

Is it an eye for an eye tooth for tooth justice? And what about the people who are already lifted for the past 60 years are so ? Should they be also benefiting in the generation Next? Some thing like Karma in cycles for ஏழு ஜன்மம்? Jambu:sad:

 

[RVR]

Dr.Jambu sir,

Most of our seniors here would have studied in Government funded schools. Today none of our children are going to Government funded schools for obvious reasons.

Let reservation continue for ever. IITs and other elite institutions will be like Corporation schools in the near future. Our boys and girls will manage quality education through good private institutions like BITS, Pilani etc. Anyway for post graduation they are already migrating abroad as the standards in India are not good.

There is a clear cut order from the Supreme Court of India that reservation rules will not apply to unaided private educational institutions. If this decision is effectively implemented, there is no problem for our community.

Long live reservation.

All the best

'Yes, I would. At least for another fifty years more as the next step."

Is it an eye for an eye tooth for tooth justice? And what about the people who are already lifted for the past 60 years are so ? Should they be also benefiting in the generation Next? Some thing like Karma in cycles for ஏழு ஜன்மம்? Jambu:sad:

 

[sangom]

'Yes, I would. At least for another fifty years more as the next step."

Is it an eye for an eye tooth for tooth justice? And what about the people who are already lifted for the past 60 years are so ? Should they be also benefiting in the generation Next? Some thing like Karma in cycles for ஏழு ஜன்மம்? Jambu:sad:

If Bs and other FCs could "lift" themselves continuously and repeatedly for so many centuries at the cost of the downtrodden groups, how can we demand that with just one tug, they should feel satisfied?

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

"I hang my head in shame, thinking how selfish and against Dharma these people can get for them to shout like this while they themselves gladly listen to the various devious and opportunistic acts of Krishna described in the Mahabharata and Bhagavata justified because of karma of past , curses, and so on, although, on the face of it, the concerned victim did not do anything wrong."

This what exactly I meant when I said Mandal replacing Manu It was explained on Karma Theory till now by Manuvadis Now Mandalvadis are taking over the same explanation Not strange in our culture. மாமியார் ஒடச்சா பொன்கலம் comes into play here

"If Bs and other FCs could "lift" themselves continuously and repeatedly for so many centuries at the cost of the downtrodden groups, how can we demand that with just one tug, they should feel satisfied?"

All these people were projecting themselves as rationalist & Human rights protectors demanding even scrapping of capital punishment arguing it is nothing but revenge Killing! Now your jurisprudence seems to be seems exactly that! Revenge!

I see some people in our community hang their head down in shame for what has happened against dharma in Mahabharatha times. But in the recent past some great men - Rationalist who pioneered the Dalits cause in the field and not in the web did not feel so In fact they named themselves after Brahmins who inspired them. Bheem became Ambedkar. Kanakasuburatinam became Bharathi Dosan .Strangely people who proudly called themselves after Rationalist Non- believer EVR, Like Periyar Dasan becomes Abdulla.!

Now this should be enough reason to keep their head on their shoulders

And Krishna I do not think is a Brahmin .In fact none of the Hindu Gods are Brahmins as far my knowledge goes. Only some Asuras like Ravanan was a Brahmin. I picked these information from this web after I became a member These information are from TB.com only

Now Krishna has become the Brand Ambassador for Yadhava Outfit which is in the Mandal list!

Manu is replaced by Mandal One by the other one evil by another Jambu:crazy:

 

[kunjuppu]

..............I should introduce myself, since I have not posted here before, and make it clear my background, I am from a non-traditional, liberal family when it comes to caste interaction. I have read this forum for many months, unsure of whether I should interject with my opinions or how people would respond to them. This is my test run. Let's see how it goes.

Welcome prasanth to this forum. a very good start, and we hope to hear more from you.

 

[nachi naga]

there is no caste,its all about perception of sense organs.if at all there is a caste/race,its the caste/race of humanity the knower of brahman nirgunam/sagunam is a brahmin,if his/her chosen/adopted mother tongue is tamil,kannada,english,hindi,samnskritham...etc then its tamil-brahmin or kannada-brahmin or english-brahmin......

 

[prasanth1]

Is it an eye for an eye tooth for tooth justice?

You are right, it is unfair that a boy of ours born today who did not commit any sin should be punished for his birth. Does that sound familiar? That is because the other castes have been going through it for hundreds of years. You cannot erase history. History leaves marks. Those marks are the socioeconomic situations of millions of people in Tamil Nadu who belong to so-called "lower castes". An eye for an eye means nothing to a blind man.

It would be wonderful if we lived in a world where, after centuries, suddenly everyone could stand up and say "we are equal" and dance happily. This is not the world we live in. Even if it was, do you believe all TBs would readily accept it? Even this forum is evidence that they wouldn't. That is the truth. There is a trend here to blame the others in the state for their reservation policies, criticizing them for their casteism. To me, this is the worst kind of opportunism. As soon as this centuries-old institution of caste is not benefiting us anymore, we pretend as if we are too morally superior for it and that it is an evil doing of others.

We like to speak about reservation vs. merit. What is merit? If a boy is born into an illiterate family with uneducated parents whom he must provide labour for from the age of ten in order to survive, and thus isn't able to study hard and become an engineer - is it because this boy has no merit?

I understand that this is a web forum where people come to air their grievances, even if they aren't realistic. But that is all that it is - unrealistic complaining. You cannot forget about caste in the year 2010 suddenly, when society has been defined by caste for centuries. You cannot suddenly become the "good guy vs. bad guys" just because the system is not helping us anymore. That isn't life. Life is complicated. All we can do is try to work together to slowly eradicate this social distinction and move towards a more equal society, which will not happen in our lifetime, but it may, eventually. But how many people care enough about the home state to involve themselves in this? And how many would rather just take a plane and live out their lives comfortable in some foreign suburb in America?

 

[Nara]

Dear prasanth1, Greetings!

Let me first welcome your entry into the fray down from the bleachers. I welcome it even more enthusiastically as you are providing a strong and coherent argument in favor of caste-based reservation, which I support. If there are others still in the stands, I welcome them also to jump in, we can use all the help we can get.

First, Shri. uvsharma wants us to forget the past, past is past he says. He further says all attempts must be made to unite all citizens. This is a good sentiment and I endorse it fully. Under this banner of unity, would Shri uvsharma be willing now to drop his objections to offer icm as even a possibility in the svayamvarams, that too only to those who may have an interest in it?

Then, Dr. Jambu has compared Manu Smrithi with Mandal Commission. He thinks Mandal Commission has replaced Manu and this is akin to what is described by the adage "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Is this a fair comparison?

Manu Smrithi is a field manual for the suppression of Shudras and Dalits right from the day they are born to the day they die. It provides laws to control how their babies are to be named, what they can study, what they can hear, what they can say, what work they can do, who they can marry, how much property they can own, what garments they can wear and how, and much more.

For good reason, MS stands discredited among all the peoples, yet, it is still practiced by Brahmins, particularly orthodx Brahmins. It is practiced to the extent one is able to, and to the extent it does not attract too much attention from others. So, one can't say it has been replaced, for that would mean MS is extinct. It is not, at least among Brahmins.

In contrast, MCR is a document directed at the most wretched among our society. Its goal is to provide opportunity for their uplift, and level the playing field. One may disagree with their recommendation, viz increasing the reservation quota to 49.5%, that would be a fair point worth debating. I happen to agree with their recommendation, but I can understand a disagreement on that count.

So, to say or imply MCR is somehow equivalent to MS, and that MCR has replaced MS in a kind of reverse "eye-for-eye, tooth-for tooth" way reveals a total lack of familiarity with either document.

...It is easy for a those of us that benefited from those distinctions to become moral in the year 2010 when things start to turn against us.

... But isn't this opportunism? We reap the benefits for centuries, and then when that same system makes it harder for us, we put the blame on others.

Classical economic theory states three inputs for creation of wealth, (i) land, (ii) capital, and (iii) labor. For eons (i) and (ii) were systematically denied to the low castes. So, surplus productivity from the labor of low castes went to enrich the upper castes even further. These riches, tainted by labor extracted in an oppressive way from the low castes, when passed down to the subsequent generations, the taint also passes down. The present day FCs cannot glibly accept the property of their forefathers and refuse any responsibility for the sins of the system their forefathers followed to accumulate this wealth.

The crimes of the system our forefathers followed goes even deeper than mere accumulation of material riches. The low castes were denied even basic education and were made to believe they are worth only for manual labor. This is deep in the psyche of all castes, a typical Brahmnist also believes this non-sense. I have seen enough TBs in my life who openly express contempt for the intelligence of Dalits and BCs.

The result of this vile psychological poisoning perpetrated over centuries is documented by many researchers. Take the case of two babies born in identical economic circumstance but one in FC and the other in BC/Dalit. The FC child is much more likely to complete HS, College, and be economically successful. The BC/Dalit child of the same economic background is less likely to achieve any of these. This is why a reservation system based solely on economic criterion is not a fair system.

Reservation is not a magic bullet. It is not going to solve all the problems that took centuries to create. MCR also states this very clearly. They recommended vigorous efforts starting from primary education, all the way to college. They recommended provision for tutoring outside class work. They recommended nutritious meals for kids. They recommended housing and meals in cities for students. They recommended financial assistance. MCR recommendations were much more holistic than just some arbitrary % in reservation. Since Brahmins are affected only by the %, all they talk about is this %.

Cheers and welcome prasanth1

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Dear Prashanth1

"And what about the people who are already lifted for the past 60 years are so ? Should they be also benefiting in the generation Next? Some thing like Karma in cycles for ஏழு ஜன்மம்?"
Jambu:sad:

What do you think? should the next generation and further also be benefited with reservation ? . I think when Ambedkar wrote the constitution Reserved seats in electoral bodies was originally planned for I think 10 years or so But it is extended repeatedly on review. You are suggesting this for generation even with out a review? even after our death?
Don't you think what Manu was perpetuating till now Mandal will do it from now on If you feel caste system is bad it should be killed and if you think Brahmins were the cause You have neutered them already You are replacing Manu with Mandal and if you think that is a solution it may be wishful. I feel that you have a philosophy like what cannot be cured must be endured. or if you cannot avoid enjoy! This is tinkering job only. After 60 years now there is a demand for caste based census!
An eye for an eye means nothing to a blind man. Is it mandated by sound jurisprudence? Do you mandate that?:sad: Jambu

 

[RVR]

Dr Jambu Sir,

Till few decades back `Socialism' was the mantra of all political parties. Our present Prime Minister under the leadership of Late Prime Minister Narasimha Rao buried it way back in 1991 in the name of `market economy'. Present Home Minister P Chidambaram also played supportive role as Commerce Minister then.

`Socialism' was the vote catching `mantra' till Indian economy almost reached bankruptcy in the early 90s. Reserve Bank of India pledged Gold to get foreign currency when Manmohan Singh was Finance Minister in 1991.

Liberalization followed immediately at Jet Speed and all the old slogans of socialism was buried without any deliberation. Today Coca cola and Pepsi is available at every village where drinking water is not available. We cannot blame Coca cola or Pepsi since they have excellent marketing and distribution skills. But our Government is unable to provide safe drinking water to its own citizens.

No body listened to Rajaji when he said Licence/Control Raj will breed corruption at the corridors of power and will not benefit the consumers. We were happy with Ambassador car till the liberalization came into existence. Today we have multiple choices of car and selection has become a extremely difficult job for the buyer.

Today `Reservation' is the best vote catching slogan. Let it reach its own destination and please wait till then. On the one hand Government is permitting foreign universities to open `shops' in India. Private colleges and universities are already doing a roaring `business'.

None of our Higher educational Institutions like IIT, IISc etc have achieved global rankings inspite of being treated as dream instituions by every student.With the present policies of the Government, they may lose their status within India itself.

A tiny city state like Singapore has two world class universities NUS and NTU. Both NUS & NTU are coming to India every year to pick the best talented students completing school final. Singaopre Government does the full funding of these selected students. Every year more than fifty brilliant students from Chennai alone migrate to Singapore.

I am sure foreign Universities opening campuses here will attract the best students. It is not possible to impose reservation on them.

Our politicians are already keeping one third of the people illiterate so that they cannot participate in the reservation race. Majority of the remaining students also don't go beyond school. It only shows that reservation is just a mockery and is not helping the really needy sections. Dubious caste certificates are also playing its own role in the whole episode.

Let us keep away from the race and watch the game from the sidelines. I earnestly feel that you don't have to waste your time discussing about this. Please help me in organizing a rural health care camp where you can do a great service to the really needy people belonging to all communities without any reservation.

All the best

 

[Nara]

....I see some people in our community hang their head down in shame for what has happened against dharma in Mahabharatha times. But in the recent past some great men - Rationalist who pioneered the Dalits cause in the field and not in the web did not feel so In fact they named themselves after Brahmins who inspired them. Bheem became Ambedkar. Kanakasuburatinam became Bharathi Dosan .Strangely people who proudly called themselves after Rationalist Non- believer EVR, Like Periyar Dasan becomes Abdulla.!

What were the names of people and what names they adopted are completely tangential and have nothing to do with the issue in any shape or form. Periyar Dasan changing his name to Abdulla has no relevance to whether or not some of the actions of present day FCs cause shame.

This practice of changing the topic is what is called straw man argument. When you have run out of arguments that speaks to the issue at hand, or even otherwise, just create a different issue (straw man) and argue against that.

Anyway, if there is any interest to talk about names and why people change their names, we can indeed discuss it as a separate issue.

Bhemrao Ramji Ambedkar
He was born Bhemrao Ramji Sakpal. Ramji was hs father's name and Sakpal is his caste name. Bhemrao is his given name. BRA cannot be held responsible for any of it.

He changed his last name from Sakpal to Ambedkar after the Brahmin teacher who was kind to him. The reason for this name change was, his last name Sakpal identified him as a Dalit and that caused extreme hardships. Brahmins often proudly proclaim their lineage, but Bhimrao felt compelled to change the name that identified his lineage. Such is the system we are told we have to take pride in and pound our chests for.

He took the last name of his favorite teacher, Ambedkar. What impressed young Bhemrao was not that his teacher was a Brahmin, but he was kind to him. The issue is Brahminism, not individual Brahmins. No one in his/her right mind will claim that everyone who is born a Brahmin is incapable of compassionate behavior. When they act in an incompassionate way, invariably it is the system known as Brahminism that is to blame.

Later in life Ambedkar married a lady of Brahmin origin, not because she was born a Brahmin, but because of his affection for the lady who took care of him. She happened to be born into a brahmin family.

Bharathidasan
He was in awe and admiration for the forthright Bharathi. This is why Kanakasapapathi took on the pen name Bharathidasan. Bharati did not reject varna system in total, but was completely appalled by Brahminist behavior. Bharathi being a brahmin by birth did not make Kanakasapapati think less of Bharati, think about that. Bharati's Brahmin birth did not deter the extreme hater of Brahminism to even call himself Bharathi "Dasan" with pride.

EVR
Ramaswamy is the name given to him by his devout and castiest parents. He was a true iconoclast. He bitterly criticized lots and lots of archaic views and practices. He rejected child-marriage, he advocated widow remarriage, he rejected the hoary Tamil concept of Karpu, he was for woman's liberation, he was against glorification of Tamil, he was against all sorts of superstitions, and yes he was against Brahminism and the Brahminsists who glorified it.

Today he is reviled by Brahmins because when they hear his name, their self-centered nature allows them to see only his anti-Brahmin stand and nothing else. Yet, in the world stage, when sociologists and political scientists write about social progress and justice in India, EVR's contributions, his successes and failures, get analyzed. Everyone agrees his monumental contribution towards social uplift.

But for TBs he will never be anything more than anti-Brahmin because in their view, narrow and self-serving view, everything has to be about them, in a funeral they have to be the dead body.

 

[prasanth1]

Jambunathan Sir, I believe we have reached what the English call an "impasse". It does not seem as though my words have any effect on yours. In essence, we are repeating the same thing over and over without a point. I find this tiring.

If you wish to pretend that by removing reservations, we would have a fair and just society, that is your prerogative, but it is fiction. The truth is that centuries of casteism has ensured that merit will not make society equal. In fact, millions of young boys and girls, thanks to centuries of social casteism, are born into circumstances that will prevent them from upward mobility regardless of whatever merit they may possess. This is a fact. Those of us who grow up in relatively comfortable households in urban environments may not realize what life is like for many of the less fortunate.

RVR can comfortable say "let's wait on the sidelines and see what happens" because such an attitude is a luxury he has. We have the luxury of discussing the "best students", while millions of people are never given the chance to even consider being one of them. Yes, we can afford to sit by, discuss foreign universities, discuss world rankings, discuss merit, and such similar topics. Sometimes we can even fool ourselves into believing that we are representing what is just, what is fair. If only the world were such a simple place. If only history could be discarded as if it were a storybook.

There is no reason to think that reservation is the best action. In an ideal world, I also dislike the idea. Yet the opposition to reservation here is largely opportunistic and born of the same nepotism that the proponents are accused of having. It elicits no sympathy from me.

I will not address your comments on Manu and Mandal, because I find the comparison insulting and derogatory. That such a comparison is made shows, I think, the bubble in which so many of the TB community lives within.

I feel that you have a philosophy like what cannot be cured must be endured.

Oh, caste inequality can be cured. Not within 50 years, probably not within 100, but with slow steps it can.

What cannot be done is magically pretending caste doesn't exist only when it benefits us, and then reverting back to casteist ways when no one is looking. This is the attitude of many in the TB community. No, it is very possible to cure this problem if everyone is willing to embrace one another without discrimination. But how many of us are willing to do such a thing? The answer is, not many. The opposition to reservation is primarily opportunistic, not borne of any great desire for equality.

 

[silverfox]

Dear Prof. Nara:
You know I have always supported you in your views about a casteless society and against 'brahminism'. However, I cannot, in all conscience, agree with your glorification of EV Ramasamy Naicker. I am amazed to see you praising him without also criticizing his evil and goonda activities; he called Tamil as a barbaric language ('kaatumirandi baazhai'); he advocated fornication, went around breaking statues of Hindu Gods idols. Believe me, when I was 15 years old, I didn't know anything about 'brahminism'; yet, all i knew was the terror he was spreading and the evil things he did against all brahmins. You cannot tell me that he was doing that for social justice. Just because he was insulted by some brahmins in Varanasi, he had this axe to grind against all brahmins.
By the way, he didn't do anything for the dalits. Perhaps you might have already read a book by M. Venkatesan, a dalit, called
[FONT=&quot] (1)\"Periyarin Maruppakkam\" . [/FONT]The following books expose the 'true' EV Ramasamy Naicker.

[FONT=&quot](2) \"Vanavasam\" by Kannadasan; [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](3) \"Dravida Mayaii\" by Subbu, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](4)\"Thamizh Anadhanarkalum Dalit Makkalum\" by K.C.Lakshminarayanan [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](5)\"Kandukolvom Kazhagangalai\" by Nellai Jebamani.[/FONT]

I am somewhat disappointed and disheartened.

<<<<<Today he reviled by Brahmins because when they hear his name, their self-centered nature allows them to see only his anti-Brahmin stand and nothing else. Yet, in the world stage, when sociologists and political scientists write about social progress and justice in India, EVR's contributions, his successes and failures, get analyzed. Everyone agrees his monumental contribution towards social uplift.>>>>