Reservation for Brahmins

[Nara]

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... I am somewhat disappointed and disheartened.

Dear Shri silverfox,

I am sorry for the above, but, as they say, it is what it is.

I can't comment on your personal experience. Let me just state mine. I grew up in a small village, about 15 Km north of Karur and about 50 KM east of Erode. It was DK central. I have seen cycle procession of Congress and DK workers all the time. EVR used to visit our village. People used to give துலா பாரம் of onion (he used to say வெங்காயம் to put down any idea he did not like), and other produce like banana, rice, etc. Of course, my parents never allowed me to go to his meetings. But I will get the run down from my friends.

I was only one of two Brahmin boys in the entire school. My friends used to tease me, off and on, for the Sri Churnam or the poonal. But I never felt it was mean kind of teasing. We were very good friends. After SSLC, we moved to Chennai and I lost contact with all of them.

My 9th grade teacher was a DK activist. He never put me down or made me feel different.

So, my personal experience is different from yours.

As far as DK goondaism, I have never seen a DK goonda in action. In informal discussions, Brahmins routinely site that they heard this episode or that. I don't discount these completely. But in the absence of systematic compilation of these alleged incidences, such as cutting of poonal, cutting shikai, etc., nothing definitive can be concluded. Personal episodes can only remain unverifiable incidences. I can and do, vehemently condemn each and every one of these acts of violence. But to condemn the movement or EVR, we need more verifiable data.

I have heard that in their public meetings they deride Hinduism, Hindu gods, put shoe garland to Hindu gods and things like that. I can see that these are offensive to hear or read about for traditional Hindus. But I don't consider these incidences evil or violent.

As I noted in my earlier post, EVR was an iconoclast. His aim was to break societies "sacred cows". He wanted to rid the society of all things superstitious, in a hurry. He wanted to reform the society and promote self-respect. In this context, I can see why he felt it is alright to let such things, that an ordinary Hindu will feel offensive. I wouldn't do it. I wound even go so far as to condemn the tactics, but I share his vision of a caste-free society.

I have read the essay by M. Venkatesh. There are other Dalit writers who also point out that EVR did not fight for Dalit rights. This criticism does have some merit. But that does not take away what he did do for the Tamil society as a whole. I wish he had done more for specifically for the Dalit cause.

Among TBs EVR is a much hated figure. I do understand why that is so. But, IMO, on balance, he was a great reformer and a great leader for Tamils.

We have to agree to disagree on EVR.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

silverfox,

when history is written long after all of us have gone, tamil nadu will remember periyar. and bharathiyar.

periyar was probably one of the few leaders, who topsy turveyed the entire tamil society, like no one ever did. he did not do it with violence. with the onset of dravidian revolution, there was not a single death.

look at the amount of deaths in any social revolutions. usually the privileged or the perceived privileged are pogrommed.

periyar, also asked his followers not to accept him verbatim. he is one among the few leaders, who asked his followers to question all his (periyar's) sayings, and only accept what is applicable to them. perhaps it was too much to ask such to his iconclastic followers.

periyar has implicitly accepted mistakes and flaws. personally i think, what troubled him most, was the tamil brahmin arrogance, a product of the last century.

periyar was a man of his times. today in the context of 43 years of dravidian rule, he and his views are dated. MK can fondly remember the struggles to wrest power - initially for the TNB upper castes, and ultimately the lower castes. only one outstanding aspect of the revolution remains - the rise to power of a dalit CM for tamil nadu.

periyar's words are crude. however, they appear to hit the targets - hard and deadly. long after they have been uttered, they still have the power to sting.

personally, i think, many of TBs today are more progressive than the periyarists of bygone years. in this context, i often wonder why we get upset about periyar. i figure it is more as an homage to our parents' generation than for any tangible purpose of today.

thank you.

 

[silverfox]

Dear Prof. Nara:
I believe I am a balanced person and I give respect and credit where it is due. However, for the life of me, I cannot see how EV Ramasamy Naicker was a great reformer! You say he was a leader of Tamils! ha! how could he be when he slammed the language itself! This is not a heresay and proven fact.
Please see my responses in red.

Dear Shri silverfox,

I am sorry for the above, but, as they say, it is what it is.
You are right; it is what it is. Just because you didn't see didn't mean these things didn't happen. He was an atheist. By supporting and praising him, are you an atheist, too?

I can't comment on your personal experience. Let me just state mine. I grew up in a small village, about 15 Km north of Karur and about 50 KM east of Erode. It was DK central. I have seen cycle procession of Congress and DK workers all the time. EVR used to visit our village. People used to give துலா பாரம் of onion (he used to say வெங்காயம் to put down any idea he did not like), and other produce like banana, rice, etc. Of course, my parents never allowed me to go to his meetings. But I will get the run down from my friends.

I was only one of two Brahmin boys in the entire school. My friends used to tease me, off and on, for the Sri Churnam or the poonal. But I never felt it was mean kind of teasing. We were very good friends. After SSLC, we moved to Chennai and I lost contact with all of them.
Prof. Nara, you were so much younger than me; you weren't around in the late 50's when the DK movement was at its ugliest. Perhaps by the time you were in school, it was at least 20 years and maybe they either became civilized or wised up. Every day when i was going to school, I used to see graffiti saying "Aryane, paarpane, vadakke po (go back to North)" in big red letters! These things are in indelible ink; will never go away from my memory!
Maybe other senior members like me might want to add their own personal experiences with the EV hooligan.
My 9th grade teacher was a DK activist. He never put me down or made me feel different.

So, my personal experience is different from yours.

As far as DK goondaism, I have never seen a DK goonda in action. In informal discussions, Brahmins routinely site that they heard this episode or that. I don't discount these completely. But in the absence of systematic compilation of these alleged incidences, such as cutting of poonal, cutting shikai, etc., nothing definitive can be concluded. Personal episodes can only remain unverifiable incidences. I can and do, vehemently condemn each and every one of these acts of violence. But to condemn the movement or EVR, we need more verifiable data.
Again, just because you did not see their hooliganism doesn't mean it did not happen. I was right there when it happened. At the Vaigai river in Madurai, when we were having 'avani avittam' they came in droves and did dastardly things - it was as if taken from our puranas - asuras and demons destroying the yaagas of rishis!! As a matter of fact, my cousin who had come from Tirukkurungudi (TVS native place) used to have kudumi. One of the hooligans got hold of him and he tried to cut off his kudumi but my cousin fought him off and ran away. We both ran like anything!!
Once I return to Chennai, I am planning to go to the HINDU Archives and dig up everything about that evil man to prove those atrocities did happen. Even then i am not sure if you will be convinced.

I have heard that in their public meetings they deride Hinduism, Hindu gods, put shoe garland to Hindu gods and things like that. I can see that these are offensive to hear or read about for traditional Hindus. But I don't consider these incidences evil or violent.
Again, I personally witnessed when the DK hooligans went on procession with chappal garlands around Ganesha, Rama, etc., and at every inter-section broke the idols; I am somewhat hurt to think that you would go to the extent of defending these hooligans just because you have not witnessed any such thing. At the intersection of Mela Masi and Vadakku Masi veedhi in Madurai, when they were breaking the idols someone had the courage to stop them; do you know what happened? that person was severely beaten; I can still see the blood on his head and hands. I was shivering in fear.

As I noted in my earlier post, EVR was an iconoclast. His aim was to break societies "sacred cows". He wanted to rid the society of all things superstitious, in a hurry. He wanted to reform the society and promote self-respect. In this context, I can see why he felt it is alright to let such things, that an ordinary Hindu will feel offensive. I wouldn't do it. I wound even go so far as to condemn the tactics, but I share his vision of a caste-free society.

I have read the essay by M. Venkatesh. There are other Dalit writers who also point out that EVR did not fight for Dalit rights. This criticism does have some merit. But that does not take away what he did do for the Tamil society as a whole. I wish he had done more for specifically for the Dalit cause.

Among TBs EVR is a much hated figure. I do understand why that is so. But, IMO, on balance, he was a great reformer and a great leader for Tamils.
I know of many NBs who hate EV Ramasamy Naicker. If I wasn't a pacifist and non-violent person and if I had the money and power and if I was as bad a hooligan as EV Ramasamy Naicker, I would arrange to blow up all the statues of that evil man! But.... I will never stoop to his level; that is what makes me a Brahmin vs. Evil Ramasamy Naicker!!
(note: I had my tongue firmly placed in my cheek when i said I was a Brahmin!!)

We have to agree to disagree on EVR.
Of course, you will disagree because you weren't there when those dastardly things happened; I was right in the middle of that.
I only wish he was alive; he would have shred you to pieces on the Azhwar Paasurams, saying that they were a bunch of 'vengayam' nonsense sung by 'paarpanans'. Bu then again, he wasn't educated and wasn't interested in reading.

Cheers!

 

[silverfox]

Hi Kunjuppu

I am not getting upset about EV Ramasamy Naicker. Since Prof. Nara paid glowing tributes to that man, I had to speak up. I was one of the victims -- directly and indirectly. Whenever anyone says his name, it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
As you said, today he and his idiot followers are completely irrelevant; nobody pays any attention to them. So, what do they do? Go around beat up on old brahmins in the temples whenever something happens to EV Ramasamy Naicker's statue. I wonder why these scums don't sit around with a gun and shoot all those birds who are doing a service by their droppings on his statue!!!!

<<Kunjuppu: personally, i think, many of TBs today are more progressive than the periyarists of bygone years. in this context, i often wonder why we get upset about periyar. i figure it is more as an homage to our parents' generation than for any tangible purpose of today.>>

 

[silverfox]

Dear Prof. Nara

I hope I did not write anything insulting or hurtful to you. It was just that emotions took over and I was visibly upset when I saw all that praise for that man. It was as if reading encomiums of Hitler by a Jew!!

Besides, younger generation such as yours should know the facts from someone who was there. I feel like one of the survivors of the Auschwitz concentration camp!! Ok! ok! I am being silly and dramatizing! But seriously, EV Ramasamy Naicker and his hooligans did spread terror among brahmins in those days!
Please forgive me if I had crossed the line!!

Cheers!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

I am surprised to see rational men of steel carrying and inheriting the crimes their ancestors did for generation with a guilt complex They always quote from Ramayana & Mahabharata stories of such crimes to justify their guilt complex. They are sure to know this and may have even a வியாக்கியானம் The story of Valmiki He could not find one in his generation including his wife family etc to inherit his crimes! Here big crowd ready to shoulder the guilt of their fore fathers of previous generations!

They all think rationally to a point of their convenience Caste should be erased from the face of earth every body accepts My ancestors were responsible I have the guilt in me To erase that guilt I must repent (if you feel like). But remedy? I will face the tune . Reservation. Fine How long? I do not even know I may be even dead. Now the irrationality comes into play. I will pass on this guilt to my next generation!(Will they accept it?) Rationally irrational. They have to. So your actions effect you do not know and never want to attempt even a review of its effect. I have only intention that is good ( Yes intentions alone is good enough for Noble for Obama ) Why no time frame? no audit of the line of action taken so far? If the actions had produced poor results what is the action to be adopted ? Rationally you have to change the prescription rather than stiffening the dose.

Even after one generation of this reservation it is sad to read this news item in The Hindu dated August 6 Madurai edition page 5( I am unable to drag the link Someone please do it) SCHOOL CLOSED DUE TO CASTE CLASH. The gist of it The Victoria Memorial Government Boys Higher Secondary school (Periyakulam) was closed following unrest on the campus.
Do you feel guilty for this? If not who is responsible? This is repetition of what happened in Law College Madras Last year. Jambu:sad:

 

[RVR]

Dr Jambu Sir,

Caste clashes are most common in the Law College, Chennai

Law students in bloody caste clash - Hindustan Times

I am surprised that it has spread to even schools

God only have save us.

All the best

 

[sangom]

Dear Prof. Nara

I hope I did not write anything insulting or hurtful to you. It was just that emotions took over and I was visibly upset when I saw all that praise for that man. It was as if reading encomiums of Hitler by a Jew!!

Besides, younger generation such as yours should know the facts from someone who was there. I feel like one of the survivors of the Auschwitz concentration camp!! Ok! ok! I am being silly and dramatizing! But seriously, EV Ramasamy Naicker and his hooligans did spread terror among brahmins in those days!
Please forgive me if I had crossed the line!!

Cheers!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp

Dear Shri Silverfox,

The posts by Prof. Nara, Shri Kunjuppu and yourself indicate, at least to me, that EVR will be remembered not for the atrocities committed by him and his followers (which are not remembered now except by people like you who had direct experience), probably because those dastardly acts have all been successfully whitewashed, but, he will be eulogized for the supposed good he had done to the "Tamizh MakkaL", meaning the DK/DMK/AIDMK groups to come to power in TN. That is what Nara & Kunjuppu also state. Incidentally, JJ, a brahmin, and her group also enjoyed/enjoy part of the benefit from EVR's movement!!

 

[RVR]

Sri Sangom Sir,

In Kerala it was a class struggle. When the state achieved better literacy and moved up in Human Development Index, the caste clashes are not heard. Everybody is a winner at the end of a class struggle and there are no losers.

We have to thank Narayana Guru and the communists for the movement which helped all the backward communities in Kerala to come up in life.

Narayana Guru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Tamilnadu, it has become a caste struggle, the originator being `EVR'. `Hatred' has been sown by EVR and his followers which is difficult to eliminate.

Since caste could not be erased as per Government policy, there are both winners and losers. Losers are poor and downtrodden people belonging to all communities.

The caste struggle will be eternal and there is no end in sight.

God only can save Tamilnadu from this struggle.

All the best

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

"But for TBs he will never be anything more than anti-Brahmin because in their view, narrow and self-serving view, everything has to be about them, in a funeral they have to be the dead body."

This is really interesting I have seen reports of discrimination even in cremations specially for Dalits There also segregation on caste line. I thought this should have vanished after introduction of electric crematorium I had no occasion to be there all these years But last year when I had to do the rites for my sister in Adayar crematorium 4 cadavers in line waiting and all of them happened to be Brahmins I was wondering why was this so while the death of NBs should have been much more considering their population.

One explanation for this I got it in Madurai last month. My neighbor died He is not a Brahmin I was told they avoided the electric crematorium now functioning in Madurai that they cannot do it since "Others" also use it! The undertakers should realize this while dealing with dead bodies!
TBs or their ancestors (who have never seen a electric crematorium) responsible for this? If not who is responsible?

I remember (do not exactly when) this news report of how the creation of an electric crematorium was resisted some where in Bihar by the staff fearing that their jobs are threatened! Jambu:doh:

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri silverfox, Greetings!

...I hope I did not write anything insulting or hurtful to you.

Not at all, we are just sharing our views and experiences, you did not say anything about me. On a personal basis, you have only been kind to me, elevating me to heights that I so obviously don't deserve, and underestimating my age .

As I said, I cannot speak to your personal experiences, and your views on EVR and his followers are understandable given your personal experiences. I also readily agree that I can't cite my personal experience of not seeing any of these incidences to deny such things never occurred. In a similar vein, I am unable to agree that personal experiences can be the basis for making an overall judgment about a movement and its leader. To do that, we have to systematically compile verifiable account of these incidences, their antecedents must be analyzed, and we have to see how wide spread these incidents were. Such analyses have been done for violence against Dalits and I give two examples:

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dalits in Dravidian Land: Frontline reports on anti-dalit violence in Tamil Nadu (1995–2004). By S. Viswanathan.[/FONT]
• Cultural Subordination and the Dalit Challenge, Vol 4, "Untouchable Citizens - Dalit Movement and Democratisation in Tamil Nadu " by Hugo Gorringe, Sage Publication, 2001

From what you describe I cannot be more 10 years behind you in school. By late 60s I was already in college. If in these 10 years DK followers found the wisdom of not indulging in these offensive acts, then all must be well, no? However, I have not seen or heard of a single incident when a B was beaten up by DK followers because he was Brahmin, let alone killed. Compare that to the recent events in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Sri Lanka, some of which are rightly characterized as genocide.

Even a single act of cutting poonal or even attempting to cut shikai is terrible. The DK "hooligans" who did this must be just plain uneducated, hooligans, taking advantage of the prevailing antipathy towards Brahminism and having some "fun". But this kind of ugly acts were at best isolated incidences, nothing systematic.

The DK people sure had very harsh words and they sure caused offense to Hindus. But, on balance, from my personal experience and what I have gathered through my limited reading, there was no systematic targeting of Brahmins by EVR or DK. Their target was Brahminism, not individual Brahmins. They were friends with Brahmins who did not show outward allegiance to Brahminism, like Rajaji.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Sri Sangom Sir,

In Kerala it was a class struggle. When the state achieved better literacy and moved up in Human Development Index, the caste clashes are not heard. Everybody is a winner at the end of a class struggle and there are no losers.

We have to thank Narayana Guru and the communists for the movement which helped all the backward communities in Kerala to come up in life.

Narayana Guru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Tamilnadu, it has become a caste struggle, the originator being `EVR'. `Hatred' has been sown by EVR and his followers which is difficult to eliminate.

Since caste could not be erased as per Government policy, there are both winners and losers. Losers are poor and downtrodden people belonging to all communities.

The caste struggle will be eternal and there is no end in sight.

God only can save Tamilnadu from this struggle.

All the best

Dear RVR,
In Kerala also it was a caste struggle only but, after some மிரட்டல் in the initial stages, the brahmin (mainly Nambudiri) orthodoxy did not somehow resist further; perhaps the erudition of Narayana Guru (NG) was such. It is history (not myth) that NG got a Siva temple built with the help of the rich ezhavas and was himself consecrating the lingam, when the Namboodiris came in a crowd and asked him how dare he, a sudra, think of consecrating a temple, for which NG calmly replied that his was only an "ezhava sivan"!, and that was more than a slap in the face of the Nambudiris.

I have agreed in my post that EVR and his movement might have done atrocities but only made the prediction that those will be forgotten; my sentence was, "EVR will be remembered not for the atrocities committed by him and his followers (which are not remembered now except by people like you who had direct experience), probably because those dastardly acts have all been successfully whitewashed, but, he will be eulogized for the supposed good he had done to the "Tamizh MakkaL", meaning the DK/DMK/AIDMK groups".

This sort of whitewashing and eulogizing has happened in the case of Gandhi also.

 

[Nara]

Dear Dr. Jambu, Greetings!

... Here big crowd ready to shoulder the guilt of their fore fathers of previous generations!

Reservation. Fine How long?

If you want a reasonable and focused discussion we need to understand exactly where each of us stand. From your comment "Reservation. Fine How long? " I am getting a feeling you have accepted the principle of reservation as justified by prasanth1 and me. I give below two pertinent posts for reference.

You are right, it is unfair that a boy of ours born today

...Then, Dr. Jambu has compared Manu Smrithi with Mandal Commission.

If my supposition is correct, then we can discuss the next question you raise, "how long?". If my supposition is wrong, i.e. you do not agree with the principle of reservation as justified by us, then I request you to address the arguments we have put forward in the two posts I have cited above. After some clarity on that issue we can proceed to the next question of how long.

I will wait for your response.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Dear RVR,
In Kerala also it was a caste struggle only but, after some மிரட்டல் in the initial stages, the brahmin (mainly Nambudiri) orthodoxy did not somehow resist further; perhaps the erudition of Narayana Guru (NG) was such. It is history (not myth) that NG got a Siva temple built with the help of the rich ezhavas and was himself consecrating the lingam, when the Namboodiris came in a crowd and asked him how dare he, a sudra, think of consecrating a temple, for which NG calmly replied that his was only an "ezhava sivan"!, and that was more than a slap in the face of the Nambudiris.

I have agreed in my post that EVR and his movement might have done atrocities but only made the prediction that those will be forgotten; my sentence was, "EVR will be remembered not for the atrocities committed by him and his followers (which are not remembered now except by people like you who had direct experience), probably because those dastardly acts have all been successfully whitewashed, but, he will be eulogized for the supposed good he had done to the "Tamizh MakkaL", meaning the DK/DMK/AIDMK groups".

This sort of whitewashing and eulogizing has happened in the case of Gandhi also.

Both Kerala Brahmins (Namboodris) and Ezhavas were in the same Marxist party. Namboodripad, Gowri Amma, Present chief Minister Achudandam are all comrades in the Marxist party spear heading `class' struggle which benefited entire society.

In spite of opposition from orthodox Namboodris, Narayana Guru established his own spiritual movement with great following. He fought the system inside Hindu religion which is a rare phenomena.

Unfortunately in Tamilnadu, divisive politics was adopted with focus on Brahmin hatred. Brahmins were forced to look after their selfish interests instead of the society interests which they were doing during freedom struggle. Brahmins were able to prosper in spite of provocations and reservations but the sufferers are poor and down trodden people of all communities.

Illiteracy is still high at more than 25 percent in Tamilnadu where as Kerala has achieved cent percent literacy. People below poverty line in Kerala is neglible where as in Tamilnadu it is quite high.

My basic point is in a class struggle, there are no losers at the end of the day and all are winners. But in a caste struggle, there will be both winners and losers. Losers are mostly poor and downtrodden people belonging to all communities.

All the best

 

[silverfox]

Dear Prof. Nara:
If I may, I would like respond to the following -- these are excerpts from your posting.

<<Nara: I have not seen or heard of a [COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important]single[/COLOR] incident when a B was beaten up by DK followers because he was Brahmin......>>
[/COLOR]Sir, when I was in Chennai last year (or a year before), there was some damage done to EVR's statue in Srirangam. But the poor brahmins paid for it. A poor and old brahmin sitting in a temple in Chennai somewhere (I need to go to archives) was dragged and beaten up.

Shri RVR, i am sure you must also have read that news or seen on TV. Please come forward and post your views.

<<....Even a single act of cutting poonal or even attempting to cut shikai is terrible. The DK "hooligans" who did this must be just plain uneducated, hooligans, taking advantage of the prevailing antipathy towards Brahminism and having some "fun". But this kind of ugly acts were at best isolated incidences, nothing systematic>>
I can assure you these were not isolated incidences but happened throughout Tamil Nadu. I know of incidents at least in Madurai, Tuticorin, Tirunelveli, Thanjavur. Like I said, if I have to prove these atrocities, I might as well register for a Ph.D. course someplace on "The Evil that EVR and his hooligans did and the Dravida movement". I can bet everything to prove that he did spread hatred and terrorized brahmins. You say some uneducated hooligans did it .. NO! I saw these scums with the DK flag and EVR's picture in their hand. Besides, EVR at any time DID NOT condemn these atrocities; how could he? when he was the one who instigated them!!

<<<Their target was Brahminism, not individual Brahmins.>>>
Yes, I completely agree with you that Brahminism must go. But the problem was that the leader as well as his followers were not enlightened or educated people. These guys wouldn't know what Bhaminism is even it hits them on the face!!
Look what happened at the Madras High Court (was that last year?); Just because Dr. Subramania Swamy was against the LTTE, these DK hooligans threw eggs at him and shouted clear anti-brahmin slogans!!

 

[sangom]

Both Kerala Brahmins (Namboodris) and Ezhavas were in the same Marxist party. Namboodripad, Gowri Amma, Present chief Minister Achudandam are all comrades in the Marxist party spear heading `class' struggle which benefited entire society.

Namboodiripad was perhaps the lone namboodiri in the (then) communist movement; Gowri amma and Achutananandan belong to the ezhava community. It is not at all correct to imagine that the namboodiris were supportive of the communists. They were the worst affected by the land reforms brought in by the first communist rule under EMS' CMship.

In spite of opposition from orthodox Namboodris, Narayana Guru established his own spiritual movement with great following. He fought the system inside Hindu religion which is a rare phenomena.

Unfortunately in Tamilnadu, divisive politics was adopted with focus on Brahmin hatred. Brahmins were forced to look after their selfish interests instead of the society interests which they were doing during freedom struggle. Brahmins were able to prosper in spite of provocations and reservations but the sufferers are poor and down trodden people of all communities.

I agree with you in this. Sree Narayana Guru (SNG) was himself as good as the most erudite namboodiri in his knowledge of our scriptures and this became possible because Kerala had at least two centuries of egalitarian approach in some (not all, I agree) lower castes also becoming proficient in our scriptures.

My basic point is in a class struggle, there are no losers at the end of the day and all are winners. But in a caste struggle, there will be both winners and losers. Losers are mostly poor and downtrodden people belonging to all communities.

All the best

I think you are wrong in making such an assumption. In any struggle there are clear winners and losers; winners win at the best, not lose, at the worst and losers lose, and if the winners do not win the losers also won't lose, but then it is a draw. In Kerala the brahmins (both namboodiris and Pattars) lost almost all their farmlands, as also the general approbation and respect in society and many were reduced to utter poverty. But unlike TN, there was no caste hatred and the credit for that fully goes to SNG, as you say.

 

[RVR]

Sri Silverfox said,

"Shri RVR, i am sure you must also have read that news or seen on TV. Please come forward and post your views"

It happened at Ayodhya Mandapam, West Mambalam, Chennai. Hooligans came to the place in a van, entered Ayodhya Mandapam, cut the sacret threads of few poor brahmins and assaulted & abused them in the broad day light.

All the best

 

[RVR]

"I think you are wrong in making such an assumption. In any struggle there are clear winners and losers; winners win at the best, not lose, at the worst and losers lose, and if the winners do not win the losers also won't lose, but then it is a draw. In Kerala the brahmins (both namboodiris and Pattars) lost almost all their farmlands, as also the general approbation and respect in society and many were reduced to utter poverty."

Sri Sangom Sir,

My own brother in law and his brothers lost lands in Land reforms introduced by Namboodripad way back in 1967. My brother in law was a member of Marxist Party and was very close to all the top leaders like Namboodripad, Nayanar, Gowri Amma and others. Marxist party also rewarded him as Managing Trustee of Irinjalakuda Bharathan temple (I think it is the only known temple for Bharathan) and also President of local co-operative Bank. He was also offered party ticket for MLA seat in Irinjalakuda Constituency but he didn't contest.

But the lands lost due to reforms is an one time shock, which they all came out through diversifying into other opportunity areas.

As you rightly said there is no Brahmin Hatred in Kerala.

All the best

 

[Nara]

Dear sf,

I understand compiling and cataloging instances of atrocities is time consuming and requires academic skill and patience. But that is the only way a broad judgment about a movement and its leadership can be derived. Personal episodes, however grotesque, cannot be anything more than that, unverified personal episodes.

But, you don't have to undertake this task yourself. Brahmincal matams have amassed hundreds of crores of rupees in their coffers. They can sponsor a research study that goes into this issue. If the Mathams themselves do not want to be seen to be getting into political issues, there are enough surrogates through whom this can be accomplished.

From my last post let me repeat, the incidences that you describe, however horrific they are, do not amount to even a fraction of what Dalits suffer even today and other minorities suffer in many places in the world like Sri Lanka, Bosnia.

The egg attack on SS on the steps of the High Court was due to his perceived opposition to Sri Lankan Tamil's causes. Calling him a "pappaan" is to insult him further. This incidence has nothing to do with the message of social reform advocated by EVR and DK.

No sir, I don't agree with your statement, "These guys wouldn't know what Bhaminism is even if it hits them on the face!!" For each of the personal experiences Brahmins cite, they also have experiences of oppressive casteism thrust upon them. The reason EVR's anti-Brahminism message found resonance with such an overwhelming majority of Tamils is because of this personal experience.

Cheers!

 

[prasanth1]

I am surprised to see rational men of steel carrying and inheriting the crimes their ancestors did for generation with a guilt complex

I wish to comment on this accusation. No, sir. I am not inheriting the crimes of my ancestors. I have no guilt. I am a moral person and have nothing to be guilty for. I am only looking at this world with the benefit of all humans instead of only those who are related to me. It is short-sighted to claim that the modern generation has gained nothing from caste. I am an educated man, but I do not fool myself into thinking that this is because I am a hard worker unlike those low-caste people. No, the true reason is that I was born into circumstances which made it far more likely for me to be an educated man. This is an ongoing cycle. Someone must change the cycle. I am willing to give up the benefits that are afforded to me so that others may receive their share, and the cycle may be broken. There is no guilt within this: only an interest in the welfare of all peoples.

Violence against Brahmins is terrible as is any violence. Yet I wonder where the outrage is for the millions of similar horrific acts and circumstances which have been forced onto the lower castes for centuries and continue to this day.

 

[happyhindu]

In this matter, i am completely with Shri Silverfox. There can be no justification for violence.

IMO, the violence happened because EVR and JP created caste-awareness and put ideologies into the minds of the 'dalits' that they must fight for their self-esteem and equal-rights.

However, EVR and JP did not provide the necessary tools for their upliftment / prosperity. So, the anger of the dalits in effect became directed at the brahmins. And the hooligans did what they did.

Of what use is awareness and ideology, if it is not acted upon as a peaceful social revolution to aid the downtrodden with intervention programmes.

IMO, the open propagation of the varna system by an iconic guru (of very high celebrity standing), might have helped. Also IMO, such open propagation does act as an open invitation for anger.

The law and order situation in independent-india could not have allowed violence against either brahmins or dalits or any form of caste-based-violence.

Effective leadership by politicians at the time of indian-independence was lacking. They cud have drafted better laws, but did not.

IMO, violence against brahmins was (and in the case of dalits today continues to be) the result of weak laws, weak police and a weak judicial system.

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

"I am willing to give up the benefits that are afforded to me so that others may receive their share"
This ideal I have too! But is it practical or does it work? we are prepared to sacrifice benefits that you may not need so that deserving people are to benefit That it should reach the correct target. Do you agree on this ? Where is the guarantee it reaches the target?

I am in dilemma at this hour of the day regarding this ideal of mine! I will be getting one color TV today in an hours time They officials yesterday gave me token and advised me to collect the TV today I have 3 TV( including HD LCD 42 inches) in my house already with this it will be 4! we are 2 but 4 TVs. TV per each eye! I told them I never asked for it and I do not need it by any stretch of imagination The Reply You Got the TV because you have a Ration Card that is valid. One TV is for that. you have no choice If you don't want to take it also it will be marked in your card as TV allotted. and if you don"t take, it is liable for miss use and you be helping that to happen Is it an offer or an emotional blackmail I wonder!
I have decided to take it. Other wise I might be aiding corruption. This acceptance is legal but not ideal. Non acceptance may lead to corruption!

Your sacrifices goes nowhere near the target விழலுக்கு நீர் பாய்சல் . That is what it is!

I thought I might give to Vellamal may servant she has one of her own and with this totaling to 2 already. she has one room house no place even for this 2 TV she got. what she will do with 3rd if I give to her!

Then why not for Andy who cleans my car on Sundays. He is also getting one in this offer. But he does not have power in his hut! See Even a small sacrifice of TV has so many ramification & Implication. Probably these similar situation was the reason for the saying " பாத்திரம் அறிந்து பிச்சை " Jambu

 

[RVR]

Ms Happy Hindu,

I think you mean Late Jayaprakash Narayanan in your posting by using short letter JP.

JP was a Gandhian and follower of Acharya Vinoba Bhave. He supported the Bhoodan movement of Acharya Vinoba Bhave which was a very peaceful movement persuading rich land lords.

JP fought against Indira Gandhi and was imprisoned during emergency. After release, he was instrumental in uniting the entire opposition under a single banner `Janata Party' against the Congress Party. Janata Party won the elections in 1977 and formed the first non-congress Government in India. He made Morarjee Desai, a Gujarthi Brahmin, as Prime Minister. JP never played caste politics and was not at all against `Brahmins' at any time.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Ms Happy Hindu,

I think you mean Late Jayaprakash Narayanan in your posting by using short letter JP.

JP was a Gandhian and follower of Acharya Vinoba Bhave. He supported the Bhoodan movement of Acharya Vinoba Bhave which was a very peaceful movement persuading rich land lords.

JP fought against Indira Gandhi and was imprisoned during emergency. After release, he was instrumental in uniting the entire opposition under a single banner `Janata Party' against the Congress Party. Janata Party won the elections in 1977 and formed the first non-congress Government in India. He made Morarjee Desai, a Gujarthi Brahmin, as Prime Minister. JP never played caste politics and was not at all against `Brahmins' at any time.

All the best

JP is Justice Party (abbreviated). Since my post was in the context of EVR, i thot it was understood. If i meant Jayprakash Narayan i wud have said so.

Regards.

 

[Nara]

....The law and order situation in independent-india could not have allowed violence against either brahmins or dalits or any form of caste-based-violence.

[..]

IMO, violence against brahmins was (and in the case of dalits today continues to be) the result of weak laws, weak police and a weak judicial system.

Dear HH, Perhaps you don't mean it the way I am seeing it, but, I just cannot accept the equivalence implied here between the real, institutionalized, systematic, documented, uninterrupted, and continuing violence directed against Dalits on the one hand, and on the other, the mostly sporadic, incidence triggered, harassment directed at some Brahmins.

You are aware that even today Dalits are made to take off their foot ware when entering a village, not allowed to ride on a cycle, not allowed to take water from common well, and so many acts of violence against human spirit. These are not just isolated or sporadic incidences, these are daily occurrences. These acts may not constitute physical violence, but they have a much worse effect, they poison the minds of kids of all castes and are daily facts of life.

And then there is actual physical violence, people getting hacked to death because they had the temerity to question the establishment.

Drawing any sort of equivalence between what is happening to Dalits and what is being claimed as happening to Brahmins is nothing more than plain wishful thinking.

Cheers!