The situation is being mis-represented here. That the people the dalits are fighting against today are mostly ardent followers of EVR should tell the correct position.
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The situation is being mis-represented here. That the people the dalits are fighting against today are mostly ardent followers of EVR should tell the correct position.
Nara said:
The easiest cop-out in this forum is to characterize others as being overtaken with one emotion or the other while considering oneself purely rational.
Reservation based on caste is, by definition, discrimination. The argument comparing the percentage of population to the percentage of available resources to compete does not present the correct picture because it does not tell anything about the absolute number of resources available to compete. If percentages alone matter, the SCs of Tamil Nadu who had 18% percentage of seats reserved in proportion to their population percentage in adddition to the the open quota percentage of 50% in the beginning and 31% for several decades now should have become a advanced class. Contrary to what Nara writes here, the brahmins definitely did not have the best of financial resources. Hard work was their main asset.
To understand the devastative effects that a policy like reservation can create, one does not have to look very far, especially if one is in TN. One has to only look at what happened to the tamils of Sri Lanka. Their protests against the standardization policy (aka reservation) is what led to the separation movement and the hapless tamils in the end were completely annhilated. The brahmins must have been very lucky that such a state did not befall them (yet) but this is not because the reservation system here is any less insidious. It is because of two main reasons: One, India is a very large country and so the tamil brahmins were able to escape TN and move to different parts of the country where reservation was not as oppressing. Second, Discrimination was not introduced in the private sector. Both these facilities were not available for the srilankan tamils for example and they had to take arms and the rest is history. But what we see now in India is that these safety valves are being closed very fast and a sri-lanka like situation could easily arise in India in the future. Already one can see social unrest throughout India. The Jats, the gujjars, the marathas - all want a piece of pie that the "insider" groups currently enjoy! The clamor to achieve "minority" status is also on account of this pernicious discrimination.
Make no mistake, ad-hoc reservation system together with corruption (which by the way is not totally unrelated) will be the downfall of India!
OP
OP
Nara
Guest
There is no misrepresentation from my side. All political parties claim EVR as their leader. PMK is one such party that may claim they are ardent followers of EVR, but that does not mean they are, like the Brahmin SVs today claim they are ardent followers of Azhvars which they are not.கால பைரவன்;224103 said:
PMK are prime tormentors of Dalits in the northern districts today and that makes them the very antithesis of whatever EVR stood for and fought for. Dalits know this very well. With the exception of one or two individuals who may have hindutva connection the overwhelming majority of dalits not only don't blame EVR and his movement, they actively support them. For all its shortcomings, DMK and DK have supported the Dalits and VCK has allied itself with them.
Folks, if you take a close look at the dalit organizations, its leaders, and read what they write and listen to what they say, you will realize that it is KB who is indulging in misrepresentation.
Nara said:
That is not because they have the interests of dalits in mind.
The vanniyars are challenging the existing caste composition of the political powers of TN and hence DMK/DK are using dalits in their fight to retain the status quo.
The dalits are being played as always by the dravidianists!
OP
OP
Nara
Guest
The flip side of this unnecessary personal comment is trying to pass the buck and escape responsibility is a result of extreme deviousness and cunning. If you think I harbor extreme prejudice against brahmins, so be it. You made good arguments in the post, but then ended it with this nasty personal comment, why? Why can't we stay above this?கால பைரவன்;224102 said:
Now, to your good arguments, I do agree divisions existed and dalits were not always oppressed, etc. We have argued about these in the past several times. Our differences have been already hashed out, the main one being, in my view these early divisions were not hierarchical and the dividing lines were permeable. During the later Kalapirar period these divisions may have been done away with altogether. Up to this point we are presenting our theories, we have to agree to disagree.
The time after Kalapirar is not that difficult to decipher, we have lots of extant texts. Kalapirar's defeat paved the way for the bhakti movement and Brahminism in the Tamil country, and with it came the hierarchical Varna system under which the dalits have been subjugated and exploited. Tamil literature since the advent of the Bhakti period bears witness to this. How could you explain the tale of Thirnalaippovar or Thiruppanazhvar? How could you explain Maraner Nambi? How could you explain the repeated denunciation of Brahmins treating outcastes badly?
The oppression of dalits in the last roughly 1200 years is due to the ideology of Brahminism. The dominant NB castes were co-opted as enforcers of this oppressive regime. Pointing fingers at them, both B and NB, is warranted. This forum being one frequented by Brahmins the finger gets pointed at them. K has shown within the dominant NB castes fingers get pointed at them, and those who do the finger pointing there get castigated by those NBs like I get castigated here. Just as those contrarians take the slings and arrows in their stride, I will do so as well.
OP
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Nara
Guest
This is your opinion, hard to argue with. But one thing you have not answered is the fact dalits are siding with DMK/DK. Why is that? Do you think Brahmins feel more solidarity with Dalits than DMK/DK, surely you don't believe that. Brahmins love BJP and Subramaniam Swamy, and the dalits are on the other end of the spectrum.கால பைரவன்;224107 said:
May be, I don't deny that is likely. In the case of DMK, perhaps it is more than likely. I don't trust DMK to play fair with dalits. But then, they are the only political outfit that is at least ready to go to the mat for the dalits.
Nara said:
See this is the problem. The narrative that you present here is surely NOT ONLY your narrative. This is the narrative of the dravidian movement comprising of dominant NB castes. It is a narrative designed to shift the blame on brahmins by presenting a distorted picture to justify discrimination and create hatred against them. Therefore characterizing it as "oppressive brainwashing" is factual according to me.
I reject that this is a personal attack!
OP
OP
Nara
Guest
Okay KB, you have it your way, but we both know, you have absolutely no interest in the the merits of my arguments.கால பைரவன்;224115 said:
I can live with this ...... what is one man's education is another man's brainwashing, oppressive, I don't know about that ..... cool down KB no need to be so angry .....
Right now it is simply political compulsion and it does not mean this status will remain permanent. VCK was very close to PMK one time.
The modus operandi of DMK/DK has been simply to use the caste strength to capture political power. This worked well to marginalize the brahmins because brahmins were in miniscule numbers. What is repeatedly called revolution here is not a revolution at all. It is simply a case of arithmetics. The vanniyars are not being hypocritical; they are following in the footsteps of DK/DMK movement. But now the different castes aligned against one another each have considerable numerical strength. They cannot be simply wished away by vulgar talks and intimidation.
Almost all critiques of casteism uniformly support the case of dalits because the hierarchy, which they deny vehemently outwardly, is actually firmly entrenched in their minds and hence they feel they should support the lowest rung. I do not think this is the right approach.
Caste wars cannot be avoided in India as it is moving towards consociationalism which won't work well because not all caste groups are equally polticially vociferous at a given time. So those who are politically vociferous at a given time will take a major share of power and there will be constant fights. What is happening in TN is this, which is the legacy of DMK/DK movement; the caste wars to capture political power are because of DK movement and not despite the movement.
OP
OP
Nara
Guest
I am more optimistic.... as we are already seeing, education is reaching all sections of society, and both genders. An unstoppable consequence of this trend is for the youngsters to reject the irrational notions of birth based caste segregation, let alone supremacy.கால பைரவன்;224119 said:
For each Brahmin girl marrying NB, there will be ten times as many Vanniyar girls marrying dalit young men. For all the consternation of மருத்துவர் and the uptight Brahmins, this trend is in the cusp of gaining escape velocity. Sooner, rather than later, intermarrying will be the norm, so much so, it would be just marrying, what is intermarrying anyhow will be the question the parents of these children will be asking.
We are already in the edge of this caste black hole eating them all up. My view of the future is much more optimistic, caste will be a four letter word for the children just maturing into young adults.
a very interesting disussions between naraji and KB ji.As I have been saying brahmins of today are not responsible for accident of birth as brahmins nor can they be made guilty of what their forefathers believed in or practised . Nor can brahmins marry r nbs to overome their guillt feelings promoted in them by the likes of naraji or put up with a reservation policy favouring midcastes .The first step to reforms is dismantllng of reservation policy favouring midcaste who do not need them. intermarrying Bs and Nbs may be a pipe dream nursed by naraji.brahmins will marry higher caste northerners or christians from the western countries even barmaids are ok with them. fighting for dravidians is a lost cause and out of tune with the times . the new generation of youth will look for material. gains and marriages will be decided by money power and love with a brahmin or white tag. caste and religion will take a backseat in new dispensation this is specially true for brahmins who have left tamil nadu for pastures in other parts of their country and abroad
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Birth is not by accident. It is decided by karma. Not only for hindus, but budhdhists and jaons as well. If one says that he doesn't believe in karma and rebirth, he follows a different dharma.
Nothing wrong in that. No brahmin ever felt guilty; in the past or now or will in the future.
Nothing wrong in that. No brahmin ever felt guilty; in the past or now or will in the future.
Many castes want to be designated as backward - that is the present scenario; and vie with each other who is more backward. Easiest solution is for the government is to delete the cast list and announce in the gazette that the rulers do not accept caste based reservation policy for government jobs and services. And delete all references to caste in the constitution and laws.
கால பைரவன்;224102 said:
Vaagmi
0
Dear KB/folks,
1. Dalits never claimed or accepted Bigriver as their leader. This is the reason why Bigriver could not make an impression in the southern districts of Tamilnadu. In these districts DK is heard of only when you visit a hair-cutting saloon. The dalits never bothered about Bigriver. Even today that is the situation. None of the dalit leaders -Dr. Krishnaswamy or Thol Thiruma - never swear by Bigriver. They are keenly aware of the fact that Bigriver never allowed the dalits to come anywhere near the higher echelons of his movements management levers. Ask this hypocrete to name just one dalit leader who was in the same level as Anna, MK, Nedunchezhian, Mathiyazhagan, Madurai muthu etc., And to boot the Tamilnadu congress had a Kakkanji from the dalit poverty ranks promoted and mentored by Madurai Vaidyanatha Iyer, incidentally a brahmin. So it is just misrepresentation and twisting of facts to suit one's prejudices. This is just like twisting, misinterpreting and bashing Alwars and commentators' words to suit his pet peeves.
2. If PMK which was the Vanniyar sangam one day is the tormentor of dalits in the northern districts, it was and it is Thevars who are the tormentors of dalits in the southern districts. AIADMK is virtually controlled by these powerful, majority community of TN today. This fact will never be touched by this great arm chair enthusiast cum revolutionary here because it does not suit his prejudices.
3. So folks, take a close look at the dalit organisations. You will realise they are exploited today by dravidian politicians-all followers and inheritors of the legacy of Bigriver-just as they were exploited that day by the combined might of all the middle castes. They are a pathetic lot indeed. Brahmins understood that they need to be included for development of the country and that is why the Constituent Assembly which was mainly concerned with drafting the constitution, and which had in its membership great brahmin legal lumineries introduced reservation for dalits by creating a separate schedule in which these suppressed communities were listed and called scheduled castes. If that dream of our constitution makers had come true we would have had a country free from casteist hatred, wars, mayhem and exploitation. But in the history of the Republic of India, soon the compulsions and politics of numbers(vote bank?) took over and the middle lump of the powerful castes (excluding brahmins) amended the constitution to include the oppressors themselves into the list of beneficiaries of the reservation. Thus they made the inclusive growth and reservation intended by the constitution makers a big joke. They had the temerity/audacity to include all their middle castes in the eligible list for reservation of a large percentage-larger than even that for dalits-even while carefully keeping themselves away from the list in the schedule already created. They did not want to be seen in the company of their slaves in the same schedule of the Constitution. So do you see who stood to benefit from the reservation even while carefully avoiding the "pollution" which may catch them if their name were listed side by side with dalits (the proximity is dangerous you see.) !! And our third standard drop out bigriver was on the side of all these middle lump of castes (Thevars, Mudaliyars, Naidus, Yadavs like courageous bell, gounders, vanniyars etc.,). His trusted lieutenants were all from these middle castes-Anna, Nedunchezhiyan, Mathiyazhagan all Mudaliyars, MK, Muthu pillais etc.,. And he sold the hatred narcotic to the masses by pointing his fingers at brahmins. When you read your next post from our champion of Bigriver's holiness ask him these inconvenient questions and ask for a straight answer. Don't take anything else from him if he can not give you a direct answer. No "unconditional love" no "unlocked uteruses" kind of answers. Insist on a clear straight answer. Let us see what comes.
Also if you find misrepresentation boldly say it at his face that he is misrepresenting facts here with ulterior motives and ask him to go and hang. LOL.
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Vaagmi
0
Representing that section of members here who believe brahmins are not the culprits and those who are not prepared to accept that bigriver was a great revolutionary I raise these first few questions to the member who is arguing here repeatedly on behalf of the bigriver. If he brings in his favourite terms like strawman argument, adhominem, diversion, idiocy to trash these questions, he would in his heart of heart, be still feeling that he could not answer them straight.:
1. Bigriver was a hypocrete to the core because a) he spoke strongly with acidic phrases against Hindi in many public meetings. He had quietly allowed hindi classes to be conducted in a property belonging to him in Erode taking a token amount as monthly rent. b) He had spoken relentlessly about women's liberation, rights etc., and even about women sexuality. But married at a ripe age beyond 60 to marry a young women less than one third his age. Did she not have sexuality? Did she not have a right to have a blissful conjugal life after marriage? Was she not a poor destitute who was working in the party office of Bigriver whose helplessness and dependence bigriver exploited? Such a hypocrete can never be an icon to be worshipped by masses. Just two instances. There are others also. But for the present only this much. If need arises more will be given.
2. Bigriver's hypocrisy knew no bounds. He needed the topic of casteist exploitation and atrocities to incite passions and hatred, needed a symbolic group like the minority, peaceloving harmless brahmins to bash and the exploited dalits to tell tales of their woes. He used all these to the hilt. But never gave any position of importance to the dalits in his party. There was not a single dalit leader of any standing in his higher level associates in the DK party. All of them were from the middle castes who were the real beneficieries of the hatred selling he indulged in. The question is why bigriver could not have a single dalit leader of his times in his party even for namesake? If this is not another facet of his hypocrisy what else is this? Or is it that bigriver did not find any leadership material in the dalit masses?
More will follow on getting a response.
Folks please make it a point to raise these questions whenever there is an elaborate articulate haranguing about Alwar-Acharya's cosmopolitan outlook etc.,
1. Bigriver was a hypocrete to the core because a) he spoke strongly with acidic phrases against Hindi in many public meetings. He had quietly allowed hindi classes to be conducted in a property belonging to him in Erode taking a token amount as monthly rent. b) He had spoken relentlessly about women's liberation, rights etc., and even about women sexuality. But married at a ripe age beyond 60 to marry a young women less than one third his age. Did she not have sexuality? Did she not have a right to have a blissful conjugal life after marriage? Was she not a poor destitute who was working in the party office of Bigriver whose helplessness and dependence bigriver exploited? Such a hypocrete can never be an icon to be worshipped by masses. Just two instances. There are others also. But for the present only this much. If need arises more will be given.
2. Bigriver's hypocrisy knew no bounds. He needed the topic of casteist exploitation and atrocities to incite passions and hatred, needed a symbolic group like the minority, peaceloving harmless brahmins to bash and the exploited dalits to tell tales of their woes. He used all these to the hilt. But never gave any position of importance to the dalits in his party. There was not a single dalit leader of any standing in his higher level associates in the DK party. All of them were from the middle castes who were the real beneficieries of the hatred selling he indulged in. The question is why bigriver could not have a single dalit leader of his times in his party even for namesake? If this is not another facet of his hypocrisy what else is this? Or is it that bigriver did not find any leadership material in the dalit masses?
More will follow on getting a response.
Folks please make it a point to raise these questions whenever there is an elaborate articulate haranguing about Alwar-Acharya's cosmopolitan outlook etc.,
C
CHANDRU1849
Guest
I don't know why you blamed our forefathers practices like other Brahmins.
Brahmins followed Varnasara Dharma like Pshtraiyas, Vysyas and even S.... accepted it. Did you at any point of time come across Brahmins had dominance over Pshtraiyas and Vysyas in the earlier centuries. Brahmins had to depend on them for livelihood.
Brahmins had followed certain principles exclusively for them but they were totally powerless.
Right from Vedic age Brahmins have to depend other Varnams for survival. Till date it continues.
If Brahmins' approach was not acceptable to other Varnams, naturally there would have been
a revolt against Brahmins. But it didn't happen, for the simple reason the other two Varnams had
accepted it.
Since Brahmins followed Varna completely without any deviation, they had no alternative but
to take up assignments best suited to them.
But that was also thwarted. Justice Party was formed primarily by forward NBs to grab
Brahmins' space, which they accomplished successfully.
I don't think Brahmins have committed any sin. What they did was adherence to the Varna
system fully, like others. But the two other Varna escaped in the name of Social Justice etc.
and fight with other Varna S...... Brahmins are being caught in the crossfire.
OP
OP
Nara
Guest
I am not saying brahmins today must be made to feel guilty, nor do I think they must be held responsible for the actions of their ancestors. My point is the refusal of Brahmins to even acknowledge their ancestors did wrong. To them it was all perfectly serene, Varna system worked like a charm, everybody had a role to play, they played it happily, everybody was taken care of, and harmony and happiness for all. Brahmins believe this nonsense to one degree or another, and we can see this expressed in the forum all the time.
Reservation is a separate issue, we have talked about it many times. It has helped millions of Indians pull themselves out of poverty. Too much emotion and too little hard facts dominate the way Brahmins look at this issue.
If the trend I see in my own extended family and friends is not uncommon, then my pipe dream is closer to what future holds for TBs than you think.
OP
OP
Nara
Guest
Among the thousand cuts of hypocrisy of present day SV Brahmins is the way women are treated.
Take a look at the life story of Andal the SVs themselves narrate. She was found by periyazhvar as a baby left near a tulasi bush and raised her. She was given in "marriage" to Ranganatha, a practice that fell into disrepute in relatively more modern times. Her poetry was exquisite and perfect. Thiruppavai is among the best poem ever written by anybody. The early acharyas saw this and made her and her poetry part of their daily worship. Thiruppavai was recited everyday. The last two verses of her Thiruppavai was given the top spot during the climax of Bahagavad arathanai, i.e. சாற்றுமுறை.
This practice continues till today, in every temple, every Matam, every orthodox home, no day can pass without either reciting the entire திருப்பாவை, or at least the last two verses.
But the tragedy is, at no temple or Matam women will be allowed to join in. Women cannot join in the goshti and recite Andal's pasurams, or any pasuram of course. Even if Andal herself comes in flesh and blood, she has to stand outside mute, she won't be allowed to join in the recitation of her own poems. In her own birth place திருவில்லிபுத்தூர், and in her own temple, in Andal's own temple, she has to stand outside the inner hall nearest to the சந்நிதி where only men are allowed during சாற்றுமுறை.
They sing வாழி this வாழி that to Andal, and even பெரும்பூதூர் மாமுனிக்கு பின்னானாள் வாழியே -- yes she was made into honorary sister (தங்கை) of Ramanuja -- yet she has to stand outside when men sing all this inside to her statue.
Take a look at the life story of Andal the SVs themselves narrate. She was found by periyazhvar as a baby left near a tulasi bush and raised her. She was given in "marriage" to Ranganatha, a practice that fell into disrepute in relatively more modern times. Her poetry was exquisite and perfect. Thiruppavai is among the best poem ever written by anybody. The early acharyas saw this and made her and her poetry part of their daily worship. Thiruppavai was recited everyday. The last two verses of her Thiruppavai was given the top spot during the climax of Bahagavad arathanai, i.e. சாற்றுமுறை.
This practice continues till today, in every temple, every Matam, every orthodox home, no day can pass without either reciting the entire திருப்பாவை, or at least the last two verses.
But the tragedy is, at no temple or Matam women will be allowed to join in. Women cannot join in the goshti and recite Andal's pasurams, or any pasuram of course. Even if Andal herself comes in flesh and blood, she has to stand outside mute, she won't be allowed to join in the recitation of her own poems. In her own birth place திருவில்லிபுத்தூர், and in her own temple, in Andal's own temple, she has to stand outside the inner hall nearest to the சந்நிதி where only men are allowed during சாற்றுமுறை.
They sing வாழி this வாழி that to Andal, and even பெரும்பூதூர் மாமுனிக்கு பின்னானாள் வாழியே -- yes she was made into honorary sister (தங்கை) of Ramanuja -- yet she has to stand outside when men sing all this inside to her statue.
is it? the status of women has been bad in all religions. why single out the hindu male.>
present day brahmins do not think of the past and sit on judgement on what their forefathers did or did not do. they think of their present day material needs and fulfillment of their needs. religion is only to the limited extent of preserving the caste identity as per the varna system and a few rituals at wedding and funerals accepted as community guidelines. not many glorify the caste system
No doubt reservation has raised the living standards of many. . but I feel mid castes do not require it any further
As far as intermarrying is concerned a few TB girls might have opted for NB boys.. in other parts ofthe country or even abroad it is uncommon.
Vaagmi
0
A hypocrete-one who also worships another hypocrete as a great revolutionary-speaking about a thousand cuts of hypocrisy is funny. He is first not qualified to speak about Alwars and Acharyas because he is an atheist and a bigriver bhakta. Yet he comes here to speak like the street corner theeppori (தீப்பொறி) charlatan about things which he could not understand.
1. Andal's pasurams சிற்றஞ்சிறுகாலே வந்துன்னைச்சேவித்து...........& வங்கக்கடல் கடைந்த மாதவனைக்கேசவனை.............. are recited every day as the culmination of the bhagavad Aradhanai not because they were sung by or made by a woman but because they contain the quintessence of the whole process of Aradhanai itself. The poster here does not perhaps know that. இற்றைப்பறை கொள்வானன்று காண் கோவிந்தா....has a beautiful, unique meaning which is the ultimate a bhaktha doing thiruvaradhanai can ask for. To look for cheap feminism and women's liberation in this shows that the poster is indeed in the company of Theepori speaker. You can not expect anything higher from these people. They are not capable of reaching that level. They are condemned to wallow at a lower level. They will continue to ask what is Sruthi a hundred times even if you tell them what is sruthi.
2. I visit many temples in India along with my wife frequently. My wife sings well. In each temple in the innermost chamber to which devotees are allowed, my wife sings Alwar pasurams in front of the deity and no one has ever objected to that. What matters is devotion and complete removal of ego when you are in the presence of the deity. When you carry your elephant size ego every where including before God/deity in the temple, you become a joker in the eyes of devotees because you start fretting and panting with imaginary grievances and you forget God. Please at least temporarily hang your ego in the coat-stand at home before going to temple. That may help you realise what Andal meant when she said இற்றைப்பறை கொள்வானன்றுகாண்..........and what Valmiki meant when he said "barththAram parishaswajE" LOL.
vaagmi ji interesting post
are these pasurams sung in goshtis also. any fixed time for it in thengalai temples
Every goshti has a tradition which is followed scrupulously. Why die hard atheist is keen to destroy good traditions. New traditions can be formed and some may get legitamacy and acceptance. There are thousands of females only bajanai goshtis. There are many activities wherein only ladies take part. In south even paramvaidikas and acharyas not allowed to touch the deity; in north everyone including ladies can touch and do puja for the vigrahas. In maharashtra, ladies are not allowed in many kartikeya (subramanya) temples. In melamaruvattur ladies have priority over everything.
Even the method of reciting pasurams is different between subsects. Differences must be valued and preserved.
Even the method of reciting pasurams is different between subsects. Differences must be valued and preserved.
Vaagmi
0
Dear krish,
These pasurams are recited as the concluding part of what is generally called Manthra pushpam in hindu temples. This is also called "sAtru marai" சாற்று மறை in Vishnu temples. In this sAtru marai (SM), stanzas from vedas, upanishads, puranas, itihasas along with the concluding pasurams of the Divya prabhandam which was recited that day by the ghoshti are recited by the members of the ghoshti as the conclusion of the process of the recital for the day. Here ghoshti is to be understood as the group of devotees who assemble in the temple and recite the prabhandam regularly. Which thousand pasurams (ஆயிரம்) is to be recited on a given day is decided by the ghoshti according to a certain rules. When the ghoshti recites the SM others generally do not intervene. They only listen attentively. If they too want to recite the SM pasurams they do that in their mind or in a low voice. This is done not to disturb the spiritual focus of the session. Vadakalai and Thenkalai ghoshtis do not differ in anything else other than some of the slokas they recite thanking their acharyans. Other differences are minor or insignificant. But they are fiercely particular about not allowing the other kalai joining their exclusive ghoshti. And they have their own reason for that. This is briefly about ghoshtis and SM in vishnu temples.
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vaagmi sir thank you for this post .got educated
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Wanted [Cook Wanted] Wanted cook for Home at Gandhipuram Coimbatore. Decent Salary offeredHi, we need a female Brahmin cook for home ( 5 members family) at Coimbatore. Morning and...
- gchitra (+0 /0 /-0)
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