Tambrams should embrace Ravana as their own- not reject him

[Jaykay767]

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Mrs HH,
I have had my share of disagreement with you, but I enjoy reading your post. I am in awe of your detailed knowledge. I am sorry for this person (JK), he is completely out of touch with reality, if he was a US citizen he could run as a Tea Party republican, he would fit in.

Dear Prasad1,

Sorry if you got this impression. My post on HH was more pun intended !!

No offence to anyone.

Cheers,
JK

 

[ozone]

Mrs HH,
I have had my share of disagreement with you, but I enjoy reading your post. I am in awe of your detailed knowledge. I am sorry for this person (JK), he is completely out of touch with reality, if he was a US citizen he could run as a Tea Party republican, he would fit in.

The way I see it, JK Shooting from the hip comes out as unpolished but adds to the BB count nevertheless

 

[ashwin_ash]

JayKay seems to revel in fantasy, maybe he penned all these epics in some earlier "janma"!! If Sita didn't wish to return with Hanu, she could have asked Hanu to bring Ram and flown back to Ayodhya with hubby dearest. Ravana's minor transgression would have been forgiven and millions of lives saved. Of course, these thoughts are also fantastic, nobody knows the reality behind mythology. Ravana was a Brahmin, Rama an NB, this much is known.

 

[happyhindu]

JayKay,

Can you please clarify what wrong did the Egyptian priests do?

The pharoh was the sun god incarnate, and he was considered to merge with the sun upon death in his afterlife - ALL religion is egyptian sun worship scholars explain. part 1/2 - YouTube

Afaik, Egyptian priest did embalming, mummification, then harnessed the spirit of the pharoh into a statue , and venerated the statue for a lifetime.

The Egyptian priests were thus the servent of God. Female servents of God also existed - The Ancient Egyptian Priesthood

IMO, they were very similar to hindu temple priests. That is, similar to the dAsA culture. So far, as i understand, temple cultures are very very very ancient.

Btw, our poor temple priests were given a lowly position in manusmrithi. They follow agamas (fire is sacred to all btw).

I find no evidence they were involved in imposing varna system. IMO they are the same folks as the ancient exalted anthanars philosopher parpanar high priests, velvi performing folks....

So please kindly clarify what wrong did these hindu temple priests do? And what wrong did the Egyptian priests do?

Regards.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Mrs. H.H.
you are perfectly correct. People get confused with complexion and beauty al the time.
With the sons of the soil migrating to foreign countries where people are naturally fair-skinned, the demand for fair skinned girls/brides has gone up sky high.
Personally I feel that dark dusky persons have attractive features which are more than often absent on the very fair people.
with warm regards,
V. R.

dear visa,

is not beauty in the eyes of the beholder? skin tone is but one factor, and while for some black may be a negative point, for many it is a positive attraction.

just look at all the inter racial couples in toronto and more than half of them are black & white, and the result is a nice mocha coloured kids.

in a recent session of neeyaa naanaa, i was surprised, at the number of girls who preferred their men, to be dark. ie dark and very dark. and many of these girls could pass of as anything from our definition of fair to 'maan niram'

regards...

 

[jayam33]

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[/TD]

 

[Jaykay767]

JayKay,

Can you please clarify what wrong did the Egyptian priests do?

The pharoh was the sun god incarnate, and he was considered to merge with the sun upon death in his afterlife - ALL religion is egyptian sun worship scholars explain. part 1/2 - YouTube

Afaik, Egyptian priest did embalming, mummification, then harnessed the spirit of the pharoh into a statue , and venerated the statue for a lifetime.

The Egyptian priests were thus the servent of God. Female servents of God also existed - The Ancient Egyptian Priesthood

IMO, they were very similar to hindu temple priests. That is, similar to the dAsA culture. So far, as i understand, temple cultures are very very very ancient.

Btw, our poor temple priests were given a lowly position in manusmrithi. They follow agamas (fire is sacred to all btw).

I find no evidence they were involved in imposing varna system. IMO they are the same folks as the ancient exalted anthanars philosopher parpanar high priests, velvi performing folks....

So please kindly clarify what wrong did these hindu temple priests do? And what wrong did the Egyptian priests do?

Regards.

Hi HH,

Egyptian priests were the most powerful men on earth!!. without them saying yes, even the Paraoh could not be crowned as one !. They were ruthless in their dealings with people, anyone opposing them were sent to the gallows. all the other people were considered inferior to the egyptian priests & treated with contempt (sounds like our brahmins right !). Many instances of these priests burying people alive !!

Regards our Hindu priests - Sorry I am surprised you even ask!!. Unless you are are a american married to Tambram or u are trying to have some fun at my expense, Have you not heard of untouchablility/caste system/dravidian movement against brahmin/priest domination etc.. ?? Google can help here

Cheers,
JK

 

[Jaykay767]

JayKay seems to revel in fantasy, maybe he penned all these epics in some earlier "janma"!! If Sita didn't wish to return with Hanu, she could have asked Hanu to bring Ram and flown back to Ayodhya with hubby dearest. Ravana's minor transgression would have been forgiven and millions of lives saved. Of course, these thoughts are also fantastic, nobody knows the reality behind mythology. Ravana was a Brahmin, Rama an NB, this much is known.

well, when one doesnt have a rational arguement, they will attack the person, & talk about fantasy, this janma, poorva janma, next janma, etc..

Lunacy starts at the end of rationality !! - by wilder.

 

[Jaykay767]

The way I see it, JK Shooting from the hip comes out as unpolished but adds to the BB count nevertheless

well HH seems to be asking some basic question on "what did our poor Hindu priests do wrong. why are everyone upset with them ??" this is like kettle calling the pot black - LOL !!

 

[Jaykay767]

JayKay,

Can you please clarify what wrong did the Egyptian priests do?

The pharoh was the sun god incarnate, and he was considered to merge with the sun upon death in his afterlife - ALL religion is egyptian sun worship scholars explain. part 1/2 - YouTube

Afaik, Egyptian priest did embalming, mummification, then harnessed the spirit of the pharoh into a statue , and venerated the statue for a lifetime.

The Egyptian priests were thus the servent of God. Female servents of God also existed - The Ancient Egyptian Priesthood

IMO, they were very similar to hindu temple priests. That is, similar to the dAsA culture. So far, as i understand, temple cultures are very very very ancient.

Btw, our poor temple priests were given a lowly position in manusmrithi. They follow agamas (fire is sacred to all btw).

I find no evidence they were involved in imposing varna system. IMO they are the same folks as the ancient exalted anthanars philosopher parpanar high priests, velvi performing folks....

So please kindly clarify what wrong did these hindu temple priests do? And what wrong did the Egyptian priests do?

Regards.

so who do you think introduced the varna system ?. I would really love to hear your version, seems like i am too much in touch with reality. some fantasy stories, tales, purana katha, anything goes, will be great to hear

 

[Jaykay767]

JayKay,

Can you please clarify what wrong did the Egyptian priests do?

The pharoh was the sun god incarnate, and he was considered to merge with the sun upon death in his afterlife - ALL religion is egyptian sun worship scholars explain. part 1/2 - YouTube

Afaik, Egyptian priest did embalming, mummification, then harnessed the spirit of the pharoh into a statue , and venerated the statue for a lifetime.

The Egyptian priests were thus the servent of God. Female servents of God also existed - The Ancient Egyptian Priesthood

IMO, they were very similar to hindu temple priests. That is, similar to the dAsA culture. So far, as i understand, temple cultures are very very very ancient.

Btw, our poor temple priests were given a lowly position in manusmrithi. They follow agamas (fire is sacred to all btw).

I find no evidence they were involved in imposing varna system. IMO they are the same folks as the ancient exalted anthanars philosopher parpanar high priests, velvi performing folks....

So please kindly clarify what wrong did these hindu temple priests do? And what wrong did the Egyptian priests do?

Regards.

so who do you think was stopping the NB's from entering the temples & not allowing them to worship the gods ??. I would really love to hear your version, seems like i am too much in touch with reality. some fantasy stories, tales, purana katha, timepass discussions, anything goes, will be great to hear

I am on vacation this entire week, would be great to get some enlightment on such deep fundamental issues After hearing these tales, I will go straight to Mr. Karunanidhi & tell him very clearly - that we brahmins did not introduce the caste system, untouchability & what are you upset about!. some far fetched tales, anything will help in driving home this point

 

[happyhindu]

Hello JayKay,

Perhaps its a good idea to put all your thots in a single post. Otherwise it gets difficult to respond to such scattered posts.

Perhaps you overlooked that Egyptian Pharoahs were considered verily the human incarnate of God (Horus). The Pharoh was the highest priest of every temple in the land.

The Pharoh appointed various priests in service at various temples. He was the law and there was no one above him. Actually, this is very similar to the tamil sangam period culture and also the IVC culture of priest-kings (i feel).

Knowlege was sacred, esoteric, closely guarded, but there is nothing to suggest Egyptian priests were considered like brahmins "By Birth". It may seem knowledge was simply passed on to the worthy.

The only ones involved in birth based purity of lineage were the pharos themselves (even married siblings to maintain blood purity).

All said, undoubtedly there was power-sharing between the priests and the Pharohs. However, am yet to come across abuse of power (the kind you mention). So it would be better if you provide sources / references.

As you can see, a section of brahmanical cultures vary with this (egyptian) concept. Though brahmins considered themselves the highest, yet some dharmashastras prohibit a brahman from picking up arms (which obviously means, different brahmanical cultures approached things somewhat differently).

Btw, the earliest mention of going against varnasharama dharma is mentioned in the Mahabharat itself, where the Pasupatha religion defied it, in the form of a conversation between Daksha and Shiva.

Also, the coronation ceremony was non-existent in the vedic (samhita) period. You find coronation ceremonies in Brahmanas (ritual texts), like Shatapatha Brahmana and Taittiriya Brahmana.

The concept of who recognised whom as kshatriya is subject to debate. Obviously, the brahmin class is not uniform. So different social groups of brahmins recognised different sets of people as kshatriya, vaishya, shudra.

In recent times, deshastas refused to coronate Shivaji while Namboodiris refused to coronate so called Malayala 'Kshatriyas' (because deshatas and namboodiris did not consider the marathas and nairs respectively as 'kshatriya').

In the former case, Shivaji relied on one Gagabhat who possibly created a fictitious lineage conneting him to Sisodias (despite that there are papers debating if Shivaji was allowed to repeat the Gayatri at all). A tiny fraction of Chitpavans became peshwas, but that was probably sufficent to have the entire 'Chitpavan group' successfully converting into 'brahmins' (the Deshasta did not consider Chitpavans brahmins though).

In the latter case the Kerala Tambrams did the coronating process for nair clans who rose in power, to become so-called 'malayala kshatriyas' (but as in the Deshasta-Chitpavan case, the Namboodiris did not recognise Tambrams as an authority either).

Perhaps you think Brahmins are a monolith (with all having the same origin and same culture). This is far from true. Even Saivism is not a single cult. There were many different religions / cultures within what we call "Saivism" today (each varying regionally as well). Various characters of various periods led to the consolidation of Rudra-Shiva as a single God.

The brahmanical religion of the brahmanas-period is also somewhat lost in history. Various non-vedic gods became incorporated into the 'brahmanical' religion. One very suggested book is 'Early Indian Religions' by Priyatosh Banerjee.

If you can look up old posts in this very forum, you will find some info on tribal warriors coming to power and elevating their priests as brahmins; the varna system being way different from caste system, and problems of colonial period that led to anti-brahmanism movement.

As for colonial period and varna fights, i suggest the book 'Law and Caste in Modern India' by Marc Galanter.

The concept of assigning entire groups of people as untouchables comes from the dharmashastras. No doubt it is a Smriti creation. The ideology is hateful as well. Even today, despite living in a modern world, it does cause immense hurt to read some things from our scriptures.

One may wonder why should an artisan or toddy-taper be considered an untouchable in the past (whats so polluting about these jobs i wonder), and why should his children be considered so within the 'religion' even after getting educated and moving into secular jobs.

Am able to understand reasons why something called 'anti-brahmanism' happened as movements in various parts of india. Whatever happened in the past was passe. IMO a section of dominant colonial period brahmins have themselves to blame for causing social unrest in the name of 'caste'.

The most common obfuscations by brahminists (which continues even today) are
(1) Juxtaposing and passing off varna system under the guise of caste system
(2) Claiming people were made untouchables for individual crimes
(3) Obfuscating and making baseless claims about Shudras
(4) Claiming people were selected to be 'brahmins' for Sattva Guna
(5) Claiming brahmin caste is different from brahmin varna; and that caste is by birth whereas anyone can become brahmin varna.
(6) Orthodoxy that formerly expected (and sections that still expect) everyone to practice varna system in a changing world.

Well you see, brahmanical cultures are not a monolith, nor is the class a single united entity. But brahmins possibly presented a picture of being a single common class in colonial period. They were blamed as a whole for socio-political reasons of change -- if a man's work profile changes, does not match with old varna status, and if he seeks an improvised position within his religion (which the dominant section of brahmins oppose(d)), what else can we expect.

Regards.

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi HH,

Thanks ! Agree, with your inputs. some additions.

1. Ancient Kingdoms were all based on a royal family/king & people rallying aroud him.they were driven by the need for survival, which meant forming an army to protect themself.

2. After survival, the most important was to preserve order. the only way they could do this was to ensure power to the ruling class - King & the priests ! & subjugate the rest of the people.

3. So right from the beginning, there was a discrimination - in all societies - including the west - read the class differences there.

4. yes, only some brahmins misused & imposed the most repressive caste system post British. & we are not a monolith !

5. The issue i want to highlight is "what were the rest of the us good brahmins doing" ???? - allowing injustice is as great a crime as doing one !!

Hence this entire anti brahmin movement & today frankly we are a much better society !

Cheers,
JK

 

[happyhindu]

dear visa,

is not beauty in the eyes of the beholder? skin tone is but one factor, and while for some black may be a negative point, for many it is a positive attraction.

just look at all the inter racial couples in toronto and more than half of them are black & white, and the result is a nice mocha coloured kids.

in a recent session of neeyaa naanaa, i was surprised, at the number of girls who preferred their men, to be dark. ie dark and very dark. and many of these girls could pass of as anything from our definition of fair to 'maan niram'

regards...

K Sir,

In my growing up years, some girls used to gossip that a dark-skinned boy means stability, loyalty, an all-weather friend who stays by you always; whereas fair-skinned boys are fickle, ditching type or have ego-hassles bcoz they themselves think they are handsome because of fair color. I have no idea why some females used to get such ideas....

Girls like dark-skinned boys. But unfortunately, perhaps the reverse is not true. Somehow indian boys do not seem to like dark-skinned girls. Moreover, fair skinned indian girls themselves look down upon dark-skinned girls. I do not understand these double standards and sheer hypocricy.

 

[renuka]

K Sir,

In my growing up years, some girls used to gossip that a dark-skinned boy means stability, loyalty, an all-weather friend who stays by you always; whereas fair-skinned boys are fickle, ditching type or have ego-hassles bcoz they themselves think they are handsome because of fair color. I have no idea why some females used to get such ideas....

Girls like dark-skinned boys. But unfortunately, perhaps the reverse is not true. Somehow indian boys do not seem to like dark-skinned girls. Moreover, fair skinned indian girls themselves look down upon dark-skinned girls. I do not understand these double standards and sheer hypocricy.

I totally agree.BTW in races where everyone is almost the same color like the yellowish skinned Chinese,Japanese and the white skinned Northern Europeans..girls dont have dark guys to chose from still they get married isnt it?
I dont think dark skinned guys are better than fair skinned guys and vice versa..you find good hearted men in all shades and hues.

Indians have double standards anyway cos we never find a song praising dark skinned girls tell me where is the female equivalent of "karupputhan enakku pidicha colour" ?? and all that 1000 watt power that comes in that song.

 

[happyhindu]

Hi HH,

Thanks ! Agree, with your inputs. some additions.

1. Ancient Kingdoms were all based on a royal family/king & people rallying aroud him.they were driven by the need for survival, which meant forming an army to protect themself.

2. After survival, the most important was to preserve order. the only way they could do this was to ensure power to the ruling class - King & the priests ! & subjugate the rest of the people.

3. So right from the beginning, there was a discrimination - in all societies - including the west - read the class differences there.

4. yes, only some brahmins misused & imposed the most repressive caste system post British. & we are not a monolith !

5. The issue i want to highlight is "what were the rest of the us good brahmins doing" ???? - allowing injustice is as great a crime as doing one !!

Hence this entire anti brahmin movement & today frankly we are a much better society !

Cheers,
JK

Dear JK,

I do agree discrimination was common in all old societies in the past. But please do note, i do not support birth-based discrimination in present day, nor do i seek to justify discrimination of the past in any form.

Maybe we just have to accept it existed, realise that the 'age' has started changing, and start moving with the times. After all, the vedic religion did adapt and absorb prominent non-vedic gods into its fold... meaning, change was happenning in the past also.

Reg the point in bold, i don't know. Maybe there were various reasons, am not sure.

Perhaps brahmins who supported sanskritisation aspirations of others, did not have much of a voice. Maybe they were not dominant.

Maybe they were a section of temple priests who did not have relatives in high offices in british government. Maybe as a group this section of brahmins had little standing.

Maybe their adherence to dharmashastras was nominal, and limited only to following relevant rituals for relevant varnas, but without any form of adherence to the violence sections, etc.

Am thinking, if only this section of recessive alleles (brahmins) had become the dominant ones, and allowed sanskritisation of any individual (irrespective of his former caste), hinduism wud have indeed leaped and grown in bounds. No one wud have supported anti-brahmanism movement of any form.

Regards.

 

[ozone]

well HH seems to be asking some basic question on "what did our poor Hindu priests do wrong. why are everyone upset with them ??" this is like kettle calling the pot black - LOL !!

I am not at all upset. With the arrival of new Truck Drivers and their new load, I am really enjoying.
Carry on. I am a brand new kettle, so I see no harm in calling the pot black for a while.

 

[Jaykay767]

I am not at all upset. With the arrival of new Truck Drivers and their new load, I am really enjoying.
Carry on. I am a brand new kettle, so I see no harm in calling the pot black for a while.

well it is time for the old truck drivers who have recently purchased brand new kettles to be cleared out & the new ones to take over !! Party is over !! - LOL

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

O3 has joined in November 2011. :bowl:

JK has joined in December 2011. :bump2:

If they call each other as old and new :llama:

what about the veterans here ???

 

[zebra16]

O3 has joined in November 2011. :bowl:

JK has joined in December 2011. :bump2:

If they call each other as old and new :llama:

what about the veterans here ???

Very old unserviceable trucks !!!!!

 

[Jaykay767]

O3 has joined in November 2011. :bowl:

JK has joined in December 2011. :bump2:

If they call each other as old and new :llama:

what about the veterans here ???

Applies only to those who have purchased a brand new kettle like Oz - LOL !!

& you can also add with brand new kettle + funny names like Oz !!

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Ref # 130.
Maa niram is the shade in between fair and dark.
It can withstand the weather changes better and suffers less number of skin problems - thanks to the natural sun-screen included in the colour of the skin!

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Certainly NOT! :nono:

Each of us are proving that we are not mere :llama:

Very old unserviceable trucks !!!!!

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Ozone is good for our health and rare to find. :nod:

J.K used to remind me of a great thinker till recently! out:

Applies only to those who have purchased a brand new kettle like Oz - LOL !!

& you can also add with brand new kettle + funny names like Oz !!

 

[ozone]

well it is time for the old truck drivers who have recently purchased brand new kettles to be cleared out & the new ones to take over !! Party is over !! - LOL

Say that without the qualifier and watch what happens.
I bought the new kettle so the Pots can see