Theory of Karma

[happyhindu]

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Dear Shri Saidevo,

Thankyou. It seems to me personally, that the "western" interpretations are infact no different from the jain interpretations.

Regards.

 

[sangom]

Dear Yamaka,

I see you as a strong-willed person. Hard-working and honest. Maybe i too am mentally strong; but am unable to let go of beleif in God. I feel faith can be therapeutic on a personal note. If utilized positively, faith can bring and keep a family together, in the form of a small loving family praying together.

I beleive to be an atheist one needs to have a very strong mind. Generally, the moment one is in difficulty it is natural to seek some hope, some support in the form of God.

I enjoy your posts very much though my views differ here and there. I salute you sir for being what you are. Not many people can live life without the need for God as you have.

Please do not be distracted by some certain posters here. You do not need to engage them. Please do remember that there are people out there who enjoy reading your posts though they may not be directly participating in the forum. The younger generation which seeks to be mentally strong, analyse everything before accepting anything, will especially would resonate with your views.

Regards.

Smt. HH, Shri Y,

Pardon me for this intrusion. HH, I believe to be an atheist or agnostic, both not praying to a God, what is fundamentally required is an honest conscience — a conscience which will allow you to accept without any reserve all the mistakes and blames which you might have committed, either unknowingly or deliberately. This in turn will mean that you are capable of self-evaluation without having the feeling of "I", look at yourself and your actions as though it is someone else's which you are judging and accept the blame without trying to justify them by some argument or the other.

But people in general cannot live with a feeling of guilt and want to have "clean conscience" just as all of us want 'clean floors' in our house. And just as we sweep and mop the floors, people try to sweep and clean their conscience of blame for their guilty actions. God comes in very handy for this purpose, not only to cry out when you are in difficulty.


If one is able to live with the feeling that he might have committed (a lot of) mistakes and bad deeds and sufferings and troubles in life cannot be avoided, then the need for a God vanishes. His role then gets narrowed down to helping get "liberation" from the cycle of births and deaths. Now if you calmly analyze, we humans do not know anything about this cycle of births and deaths, rebirth/re-incarnation, karma, etc., etc., are mere conjecture, or mere gas. If we take the view that "if there are such cycles, so be it", then God's relevance vanishes from there also.

A perfect atheist will have such conviction, imo.

 

[prasad1]

Bravo HH, that was a beautiful and well researched article.

 

[Nara]

Bravo HH, that was a beautiful and well researched article.

Presenting well researched, verifiable and irrefutable information in a cogent way is what is seen by sarang and others as Brahmin bashing, and for that I LOL (h/t Y).

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Presenting well researched, verifiable and irrefutable information in a cogent way is what is seen by sarang and others as Brahmin bashing, and for that I LOL (h/t Y).

Cheers!

Nara,

I think such articles become Brahmin-bashing only if these go contrary to the pet "beliefs" held by them, imo. Otherwise such articles will get "kooja posts".

 

[prasad1]

Dear Yamaka,

I see you as a strong-willed person. Hard-working and honest. Maybe i too am mentally strong; but am unable to let go of beleif in God. I feel faith can be therapeutic on a personal note. If utilized positively, faith can bring and keep a family together, in the form of a small loving family praying together.

I beleive to be an atheist one needs to have a very strong mind. Generally, the moment one is in difficulty it is natural to seek some hope, some support in the form of God.

I enjoy your posts very much though my views differ here and there. I salute you sir for being what you are. Not many people can live life without the need for God as you have.

Please do not be distracted by some certain posters here. You do not need to engage them. Please do remember that there are people out there who enjoy reading your posts though they may not be directly participating in the forum. The younger generation which seeks to be mentally strong, analyse everything before accepting anything, will especially would resonate with your views.

Regards.

You need not apologies for me, I have been chastised by higher authority. I do read your post and admire it. I too can not claim to be a pure "brahmin: as I have traveled around the word. I too do not believe in lot of so called "traditions". I do not go to locations that by their name suggest otherwise. It is public forum, but you do not go to a majority group just to bash and show your superiority.

 

[renuka]

Dear Yamaka,

You are going to love this...I just opened a new book I bought titled Devidaanaviyam and was looking at the 1st stanza and guess what!!!
The commentary had the word YAMAKA.

Ok here goes:This whole book is divided into 3 chapters called Varnakas and the 1st Varnaka is described like this:

"Every verse in this varnaka employs Yamaka,a poetic device referring to the repitition of words or syllables similar in sound but different in meaning."


hey come to think of it you do some what repeat your words but different in meaning!! LOL!!!

 

[happyhindu]

You need not apologies for me, I have been chastised by higher authority. I do read your post and admire it. I too can not claim to be a pure "brahmin: as I have traveled around the word. I too do not believe in lot of so called "traditions". I do not go to locations that by their name suggest otherwise. It is public forum, but you do not go to a majority group just to bash and show your superiority.

With due respect, let me assure you that i was not apologising on your behalf. Was expressing my views in general. I do admire Yamaka bcoz i cannot be like him. Just that i simply love our Gods too much. To me, tribal gods such as Thiruvenkata Swamy and Narasimha Swamy are very ancient Gods dating long before there was anything called jainism, hinduism, buddhism, etc. There has been so much mixing and churning, that it is impossible to claim kula daivams as belonging to one kulam alone. So i continue to love Gods along with the good and bad in all stories. Its been ages since our tribal days and yet some ideas seep into popular (village) culture. For those who understand telugu, i request you to listen very closely to the words -- kanulara chuddamu song from simha - YouTube

 

[saidevo]

namaste shrI Sangom.

This is with reference to your post #205. It seems that thought-forms related to karmic effects are also stored in the Akashic Records, according to the clairvoyant investigations of Theosophists. Alice A.Bailey, for example, describes the AR as below (emphasis added):

"The akashic record is like an immense photographic film, registering all the desires and earth experiences of our planet. Those who perceive it will see pictured thereon: The life experiences of every human being since time began, the reactions to experience of the entire animal kingdom, the aggregation of the thought-forms of a kamic nature (based on desire) of every human unit throughout time. Herein lies the great deception of the records. Only a trained occultist can distinguish between actual experience and those astral pictures created by imagination and keen desire."

• In addition, the AR also contains public thought-forms.

"Public thought-forms comprise of public opinions of events and characters, real and fictional. Products of thought-forms are also made by authors of cinema, drama, fiction and other creative arts. While watching the akashic records requires real mental sight, watching public thought-forms require only a glimpse at the mental plane."

Thus, it seems to me that the ability to predict the future or read the past is related to the accomplishment of the skills of accurate reading of the Akashic Records. I wish our Hindu yogis verify the Theosophical investigations into the astral and mental planes, although they are right about ignoring these siddhis for the larger goal of mokSha. There is atleast one Hindu Institution conducting these studies: the Himalayan Academy, as the following search links indicate:
Kauai's Hindu Monastery - Search Results

Incidentally, Theosophical texts describe the Astral Plane to be four-dimensional and the Mental Plane to be five ('Astral Body' by AE Powell, ch.18). Here is an artist's conception of how the 4-D astral world would look like: astralGeo.jpg

 

[Nara]

....Thank you for your clarification of the human-ape relationship citing the puranic sources and their Western interpretation.

To see interpretations in terms of "western" or "eastern" or whatever, is emblematic of a mindset that rejects anything that deviates from the dogmatic/patriotic religious views. An interpretation has merit if it is logical and backed by verified and verifiable data, irrespective of who gives the interpretation, western or eastern. Just to reject anything simply because it is western in origin is not wise.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

namast Yamaka.

I am a retired professional with a good number of years of experience in IT and banking; my knowledge of science is what I studied during my college days, majoring in Physics (all that is rusty now); and I neither have the inclination nor the time now to revive them, so you may spare me the details and explain what you can in layperson's language.

My queries on the findings of science are meant to encourage some lateral thinking, specially for the Indian/Hindu followers of science, taking into account the Hindu philosophical ideas. If you can't do it, it is fine with me. If you find my queries useless, you are free to ignore them, although I cannot avoid posting them, if you seek to criticise Hindu philosophy, spirituality and religion, by abject denial rather than by logical refutation.

".... if you seek to criticise Hindu philosophy, spirituality and religion, by abject denial rather than by logical refutation."

Dear Saidevo:

I seek to criticize and refute not only Hindu philosophy but all also other Religious Beliefs by already known scientific facts and simple logic...

Also, I will support you and other Believers on the grounds of Cultural Expression and Religious Freedom.... which would come under the rubrics of Civil Rights...

I am a big fighter of Civil Rights for ALL people....

Peace.

 

[sangom]

namaste shrI Sangom.

This is with reference to your post #205. It seems that thought-forms related to karmic effects are also stored in the Akashic Records, according to the clairvoyant investigations of Theosophists. Alice A.Bailey, for example, describes the AR as below (emphasis added):

"The akashic record is like an immense photographic film, registering all the desires and earth experiences of our planet. Those who perceive it will see pictured thereon: The life experiences of every human being since time began, the reactions to experience of the entire animal kingdom, the aggregation of the thought-forms of a kamic nature (based on desire) of every human unit throughout time. Herein lies the great deception of the records. Only a trained occultist can distinguish between actual experience and those astral pictures created by imagination and keen desire."

• In addition, the AR also contains public thought-forms.

"Public thought-forms comprise of public opinions of events and characters, real and fictional. Products of thought-forms are also made by authors of cinema, drama, fiction and other creative arts. While watching the akashic records requires real mental sight, watching public thought-forms require only a glimpse at the mental plane."

Thus, it seems to me that the ability to predict the future or read the past is related to the accomplishment of the skills of accurate reading of the Akashic Records. I wish our Hindu yogis verify the Theosophical investigations into the astral and mental planes, although they are right about ignoring these siddhis for the larger goal of mokSha. There is atleast one Hindu Institution conducting these studies: the Himalayan Academy, as the following search links indicate:
Kauai's Hindu Monastery - Search Results

Incidentally, Theosophical texts describe the Astral Plane to be four-dimensional and the Mental Plane to be five ('Astral Body' by AE Powell, ch.18). Here is an artist's conception of how the 4-D astral world would look like: astralGeo.jpg
View attachment 1316

Shri Saidevo,

It is still unclear to me as to how the imaginations of the long-gone people will lead a yogi to read the "Future". Does this mean that the future is determined by the past people's desires and nothing else? Will it not mean that there is no God, no Karma, nothing except the desires of people who lived in the past which decides whatever will happen in the future? Not clear to me.

 

[nachi naga]

i read palms.i do numerological readings.i read astrological charts.all these as a hobby.never charged people.stopped all of it.becoz i realised to give it a rest.but now i started again.does my predictions work.as far as i know,i read them all.i enjoy it.for the lark of it.maybe i shud open a parlour.if its in my karma it will become so.i direct my karma.when i say i,i mean my athma which has a body and typing aham brahmasmi .

 

[sravna]

namaste Sravana.


In the physical world, public thought transmissions (like the TV/radio programs, etc.) through the air in the form of radio waves fill the space, but is it possible to retrieve a program that has already been telecast or to be telecast in future, using a computer system?

Shri Saidevo,

It seems to me though physical systems cannot tap future or past information but we cannot say an artificial system cannot. For that the artificial system should have the ability to really think. If that could be done it could do all intelligent humans could do and would surpass all humans because of the capabilities unique to a computer system. Once this major and the most difficult step is achieved the artificial entity itself would find a way to tap signals from the past or the future.

Thus in my view Artificial Intelligence is the key to making that really big leap in Science and reach the frontiers of knowledge.

 

[nachi naga]

when ppl eat in olden times,hunting was the only way.all the varnas ate meat.this is truth.

as time passed by,slowly agri production was helpful for ppl to be living without meat or hunt for food.

now,a moral turpitude of sorts is there.vegetarians condemning ppl eating meat?? now the biggest gas ever is climate change on account of meat eaters * gasp* thud.:help:

instead of showing films,how animals,chicken,fish etc are butchered so that ppl can eat them conveniently,ppl are attacking ppl eating habits?.the karma theory is,animals get moksham immdly.as in previous birth they harmed humans is one theory.

 

[saidevo]

namaste Nara.

This has reference to your post #235.

If just the mention of the word 'Western' without any qualification (or with an implied qualification, you might think) can spark your remark about the mindset I have,

I wonder what the explicit and uncharitable remarks you and Yamaka repeatedly make, specially about Hindu religious practices, concepts and philosophy, and about Hindu spiritual/religious celebrities, can say about the mindset of atheists like you two.

Using the same phraseology you have used for your remark, I can say (emphasis on changed words):

To see interpretations in terms of "religion" or "spirituality" or whatever, is emblematic of a mindset that rejects anything that deviates from the atheistic/materialistic scientific views. An interpretation has merit if it is logical and backed by subjectively verified and verifiable data, irrespective of who gives the interpretation, religious or spiritual. Just to reject anything simply because it is religious/spiritual in origin is not wise.

Statements about perceptions can be double-edged, you see!

 

[Nara]

...To see interpretations in terms of "religion" or "spirituality" or whatever, is emblematic of a mindset that rejects anything that deviates from the atheistic/materialistic scientific views. An interpretation has merit if it is logical and backed by subjectively verified and verifiable data, irrespective of who gives the interpretation, religious or spiritual. Just to reject anything simply because it is religious/spiritual in origin is not wise.

Statements about perceptions can be double-edged, you see!

Saidevo, I welcome this enthusiastically, because, my rejection of religion or spirituality is not because it is "religion" and it is "spirituality". I reject them on rational grounds, I reject it not because it is eastern or western, but because among other things, it promotes superstitions and propagates delusions.

Further, I will accept any religious doctrine that is logical and has merit. Bring it on.

Let me leave you with a question, one that I have been asking but never got an answer.

What benefit does religion offer to society that will be denied to it in its absence?

Cheers

p.s. Why did you insert the word "western" if it was not in the way I interpreted it to be?

 

[nachi naga]

What benefit does religion offer to society that will be denied to it in its absence?

nara,What benefit does light offer to society that will be denied to it in its absence?

 

[sarang]

nara,What benefit does light offer to society that will be denied to it in its absence?

That will be for the beneficiaries to decide.

One thing is certain; if such anti postings are aired in a muslim forum, the consequences can be violent and decapitating!

 

[saidevo]

namaste Nara, Yamaka and others.

Nara, in his post #242 says that he never got an answer (perhaps in the way he would like it) to his question, "What benefit does religion offer to society that will be denied to it in its absence?" He rejects religion and spirituality on 'rational grounds', and feels that science and atheism/agnosticism are rational.

• The question is: what qualifies for being 'rational'? If it is something that is known by reasoning, and reasoning is done by the human mind, and the nature of this human mind itself is yet unkown to science in its entirety, specially when science relies on physical instruments to know the mind, how can the investigations of science qualify for being 'rational'?

• If it does, why can't the inquiries of religion and spirituality have that same qualification, especially when they do better by not relying on the physical senses?

*****

Let me reiterate that this thread is a discussion about the 'Theory of Karma'. As I said in post #122, "The crux of the debate is that karma is a spiritual (which means metaphysical)--NOT RELIGIOUS--concept."

• Our non-believer friends, specially Yamaka has agreed to the cause and effects of karma in this life, although he believes there is no afterlife or reincarnation. And surprisingly, in post #21, he says that any karmic balance 'zeroes out' with the death of the person.

2. My contention is once the person is dead and gone, everything sets to zero (no possible reaction to the action happened in his life time)..he or his soul NEVER ever gets reborn..

The discussions were steered into a debate on the nature of consciousness and the human genes deciding the emotional personality of man, with issues related to evolution. In this connection, I asked our friends a question, in post #194:

• Inasmuch as man evolved from the primates, why isn't this happening today? That is, why don't today's primates evolve into men and women as they supposedly did in a bygone age? Are there any experiments of crossbreeding between men and primates--genetical if not physical? Would this guarantee the creation of a primitive man?

• Only smt.HappyHindu chose to answer this question with a joke, indicating the uncertainty of such an experiment. I am surprised that our friends Yamaka and Nara, who talk so much about DNA and evolution, has not given their opinion.

• Since our non-believers do not believe in any metaphysical reality, I introduced an essay on the quantum mechanical concepts of microleptons registering our thoughts and karmic actions. Our friends have not given an opinion on this subject either.

With so many loose threads and lack of consensus on the scientific front, our friends chose to trash religion and spirituality, with nothing more than their opinionated expressions and accusations.

 

[Nara]

...Only smt.HappyHindu chose to answer this question with a joke, indicating the uncertainty of such an experiment. I am surprised that our friends Yamaka and Nara, who talk so much about DNA and evolution, has not given their opinion.

Saidevo, honestly, the reason I did not respond is because you revealed a profound lack of understanding of theory of evolution. I saw no point in arguing on that point. I suggest you read up on what TOE is all about, you may reject it after that if you are so inclined, but at least be sure what it is that you are rejecting.

If you think religion is rational, and if that works for you, great. But to me, belief in IPU is not rational.

BTW, you still did not answer my question "What benefit does religion offer to society that will be denied to it in its absence?" Instead you went off on what you want to talk about, which is fine with me, except that I want to point out that the question still remains unanswered.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Shri Saidevo,

Is not the Karma theory-cum-reincarnation a special feature of Hindu religion only? imo, no other religion allows the 'carry forward' idea. So, is not Karma a religious notion?

 

[saidevo]

namaste shrI Sangom.

I think you forgot to mention Buddhism, which is less religious and more spiritual, and admits k&r theory. Theosophy too admits it, and perhaps the Gnostic Christianity and Sufi Islam too, but I am not sure.

namaste Nara.

Leaving aside my question on evolution since I am not right about understanding the TOE, what do you think about the multi-layer level of physical reality posited by the microleptons theory?

BTW, I can only subjectively answer your question about the religion: it has done a lot for me personally than the comforts offered by science, specially in retaining the mental peace. I am sure most of the believers here and in the society would have a similar opinion. The fact is, the society is not prepared to give up religion and spirituality, now or ever, whatever the progress and discoveries of science. When the believers want the best of both the worlds, why seek to deny it to them?

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Saidevo: Ref post # 245

1. Yes, I stand by my liking for Karma = Action = Behavior all in the life of a person, NOT beyond it.

I always remember what MR Radha asked "Kuttram purinthevar vaalkayil nimmathi yaethu?"

2. In your view, how different is Religion from Spirituality?

My view there is, Religion REQUIRES prayers, poojas, bhajans etc all day every day... Perhaps, Spirituality does not REQUIRE... what say you?

3. As a retired former IT Professional, can't you see the enormous progress that Science (Engineering/Computer Sciences, Medical Sciences and Physical Sciences and other Sciences) has made and how it has enriched YOUR life in the at least past 100 years?

4. Along with Spirituality, please read articles in Scientific American, Nature, Science etc to learn more about Sciences and what they do to Humanity, if you can.

Peace.

 

[Yamaka]

"BTW, I can only subjectively answer your question about the religion: it has done a lot for me personally than the comforts offered by science, specially in retaining the mental peace. I am sure most of the believers here and in the society would have a similar opinion. The fact is, the society is not prepared to give up religion and spirituality, now or ever, whatever the progress and discoveries of science. When the believers want the best of both the worlds, why seek to deny it to them?" Saidevo, post 248

In this broadband internet age things are changing fast... I see younger generation is very objective in approaching religion and spirituality... they seek more of TRUTH.

They just can't put up with arguments like

"Oh... our forefathers KNEW everything 3000 years ago...whatever we need today is already given in our Vedas/Puranas/Upanishads/Holy Books... therefore, just follow them"

They walk away from such blathering of the Religious Orthodoxy, which will slowly convert them into Agno-Theists then to Atheists...

Wait & watch.

ps. The Theory of Biological Evolution is an accepted theory worldwide... you can ask any high school student in Japan, Australia, Canada or India... you just can't make such claims with reference to any particular view of Spirituality or Religiosity - they differ a lot from place to place and religion to religion in different part of the world... it's just a BELIEF...