Theory of Karma

[Yamaka]

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Hello Ravi:

My response in bold letters below:

As far as I could know, the reason behind Atheism is to be assertive with thoughts, actions and reactions. Science and the mental caliber of scientists is playsing some vital role in acheiving these. The process is towards getting to know the unknown in due course of time by scientific explorations.

You are 100% true above.

A Theist can have the mind set to accept success and failure without thanking and accusing God respectively and so a Atheist can.

The theists with belief in self Karma of the past and present would be in spirituality in true spirit and understanding. Atheists with no belief in Karma theory would not require to be in spirituality. They are the masters of their own Thoughts, Emotions, Actions and Reactions...Bravo!!!!!

Cheers.

ps. As Atheists we always endeavor to explore Nature and its intricacies thru Hypothesis and Experimentation; whereas, the Theists can rest in the dissolved state of spirituality saying "Ishwara did everything for me!" And, they will throw a few lines of Sanskrit and grin...

That's the difference!

 

[sravna]

sravna, a small correction, please rephrase the above as "According to my version of Advaita" -- then there is no problem with the rest of what you say. As we have already discussed at length, your version of Advaitam has no resemblance to that of Adi Sankara.

Cheers!

Shri Nara,

To me to be faithful to Adi Sankara is being faithful to the following:

Brahman is the supreme reality and Physical reality is a relative reality.

Everything else is only a way how the above truth is presented. So I would make a correction in your correction and say what I said as My interpretation of advaita.

 

[nachi naga]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JHjPJGRx4g
awesome

 

[sangom]

Now to your question how brahman transforms in to various shapes, the answer is there is no real "transformation" happening.

The point I mentioned was God coming to visual presence of humans. Since the ultimate Reality (God) as per advaita is the parabrahmam and since this universe is mithya, the Reality just cannot manifest itself in this unrealistic world as it is. I think you are talking about creation in its general sense.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Saidevo:
Reg post #370

You have given "multi-dimensional" consciousness as the answer for "outside information", and have given Powell's view on 4D, and also claim there are Seven Dimensions!

To tell you the truth, I just don't buy any of it....None of what's discussed has any validity towards serious Experimentation... this is a Fanciful FICTIONAL story meant to be read just before a good sleep! Lol

Instead, consider what Science can accomplish in the next 30 years -

1. I told you how organic chemists have synthesized all most all molecules if LIFE (DNA, RNA, polypeptides (proteins) various organic molecules like pyruvate, acetate etc.) present in the Protoplasm.

Now, they take the Protoplam of the human egg (as a source of all LIFE molecules), remove the Nucleus which has the DNA to run the programs of growth and development and replace it with the Nucleus of either Yamaka, Saidevo, Gates or anybody and allow the egg to grow "as though fertilization has happened" in vitro.

Once the egg divides into 8 or 16 cell stage, each cell is totipotent to develop as an individual identical to the person who gave the Nucleus.

What would be behavioral pattern of these cloned humans? Will it be identical to the original parent? Or different? How different?

Dear Saidevo, here we are talking about Immortality of Man which is an anathema to the God & Karma People!

What happens to the Soul of this Immortal Man?

2. Medical Science is marching towards "Individualized Medicine" using the genome information of individuals.

There is going to be a sea change in the practice of Medicine, and the health of human beings..

All because of the awesome potential of Science and Scientific Thinking.... not God or Janma Poorva Karma!

More later...

ps. All the advancement of Science and Technology is FREE for all including the Karma people! Enjoy the benefits and enrich your life.... Leave the Religions and Gods alone to remain SILENT in the forgotten Temples, Mosques and Churches!! Cheers.

 

[C RAVI]

Hello Ravi:

Cheers.

ps. As Atheists we always endeavor to explore Nature and its intricacies thru Hypothesis and Experimentation; whereas, the Theists can rest in the dissolved state of spirituality saying "Ishwara did everything for me!" And, they will throw a few lines of Sanskrit and grin...


That's the difference!

Shri Yamaka,

You can find difference only in the manner you could understand all about Ishwara and the sanskrit slokas.

There is a saying in HINDI - "KALA AKSHAR BHAINS BARABAR". That means, "Black letters are similar to buffallows".

No offense meant. What I mean to say is a person who could not understand certain things would consider such things as nothing more than a crap.

I neither have mastered my self in Sanksrit nor in Vedas. But the deep rooted sense of divinity and spirituality along with certain basic knowledge and understanding in these subjects, thats all got incorporated in me through family, vedic discourses, rituals and self expereinces are enough for me to accept and revere vedas and spirituality.

Scientists can well be satisfied with their knowledge, brilliancy, success and related belief about the Nature. But they need not to mock on the people who are all religiously inclined, revere the cosmic vibes in vedic ryhms and slokas and grin without the sense of supremacy and orragancy.

Shri Yamaka, there are many chances of peace and happiness prevailing in your family due to your wife's spiritual inclination. A wife or husband need not to be demonstrating their spirituality even by visiting temples and or doing simple pooja at home. Prayers and good wishes seeking the grace of God in one's heart and mind by any one in the family is enough to bring in peace, protection, happiness and prosperity in a family.

When you grow up during all your past 40 years of life as Atheist but being a true humanist and reighteous person, you might have been protected by prayers of your parents, siblings, friends as well wishers and than by your wife. Those whole hearted blessings and prayers can well enable you, other than your own talent, dedication and hardwork, to be successful mentally and materialistically. Think about it.

"There are many a slip between the cup and the lip". Either with scientific brain we can consider this as some randomn phinomina that are just based on some unreasonbale probability OR with spiritual brain can consider this as our destiney based on our karma.


Either way it is based on our poorva janma and present janma karma that may even change the perception at a certain point of time.

May the grace of God be allways upon you and your family...

 

[Nara]

.... that all that is here is Brahman the Supreme God's (sarvam khalu idam brahma),

Sangom sir, this must be the one of the great hoaxes perpetrated on the minds of religiously oriented. I have not seen one person who does not declare, every half chance they get, that everything is Brhman, we all are non-different from Nirguna brhaman and other platitudes. But, each and everyone of these people who revel in this theory, when it comes to practical situations, act completely opposite this view. They act as though we all are different, our present life is absolutely real and it is never going to end!

There is a story I once heard, which I think I wrote in this forum during my early days. There was this great acharya teaching the finer points of advaitam to a group of his pupils when they all saw a raging tiger approaching their ashramam. "Run for your lives", the acharya cried out and he himself ran away and took refuge.

Later, when they reassembled, an impertinent pupil quizzed the acharya about the dichotomy between what he was teaching and his own action, he wanted to know whether the tiger was real or not. Advaitins are a smart lot, the acharya coolly responded, the tiger was unreal and we running away was equally unreal!!

We all are born atheist, its the parents who indoctrinate their wards with the version of religious theism they themselves were once indoctrinated with. If religious theism is the natural state, why is there so many varieties of it, each in mortal contradiction with each other.

Further, many theists seem to be quite uncomfortable with their own religiosity that they have to question the motives of atheist as though they also must have some silly superstitious basis for their unbelief.

BTW, NY Times ran an article in its Profiles in Science series of Richard Dawkins. It is an interesting read if anyone is interested. Click here if you wish to read it. Those who are afraid of rationality may like to stay away.

Cheers!

 

[mskmoorthy]

One may also like to read Biography of Stalin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

and wonder why such an atheist did such atrocity- that too double sided -
read under religion section of Stalin. It is individual who does these wrong actions. At least that is where I stop.

 

[Nara]

One may also like to read Biography of Stalin ...
and wonder why such an atheist did such atrocity- that too double sided .

mskmoorthy, what is your point? Stalin did bad things, he was an athiest, so all atheists are bad people? How illogical is this?

Let us see, Hitler was a theist, supported by the Catholic Church, he was a monster, so all theists and the Catholic church are monsters?

If you want to debate this issue come up with something logical and we can have a dialog.

Cheers!

 

[mskmoorthy]

What the Acharya did could be generalized but not what Stalin did - One sided generalization has to stop -

I never understood that there was a dialog taking place here rather than name calling - May be that is understandable to be only who is well versed in logical theories. I am not that sophisticated and not that highly educated. I bow out.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Ravi:

My response in bold letters below:

Shri Yamaka,

You can find difference only in the manner you could understand all about Ishwara and the sanskrit slokas.

There is a saying in HINDI - "KALA AKSHAR BHAINS BARABAR". That means, "Black letters are similar to buffallows".

No offense meant. What I mean to say is a person who could not understand certain things would consider such things as nothing more than a crap.

I neither have mastered my self in Sanksrit nor in Vedas. But the deep rooted sense of divinity and spirituality along with certain basic knowledge and understanding in these subjects, thats all got incorporated in me through family, vedic discourses, rituals and self expereinces are enough for me to accept and revere vedas and spirituality.

I am astounded that most people don't know Sanskrit AND Vedas - still they love them because they believe they give deep rooted sense of divinity and spirituality!!

How do you get it anyway, without really knowing them? Is this called "Blind Devotion and Faith?"

Scientists can well be satisfied with their knowledge, brilliancy, success and related belief about the Nature. But they need not to mock on the people who are all religiously inclined, revere the cosmic vibes in vedic ryhms and slokas and grin without the sense of supremacy and orragancy.

I am not mocking really... I am saying that you -Theists- are walking away from the necessity of knowing the TRUTH of Nature!



Shri Yamaka, there are many chances of peace and happiness prevailing in your family due to your wife's spiritual inclination. A wife or husband need not to be demonstrating their spirituality even by visiting temples and or doing simple pooja at home. Prayers and good wishes seeking the grace of God in one's heart and mind by any one in the family is enough to bring in peace, protection, happiness and prosperity in a family.

When you grow up during all your past 40 years of life as Atheist but being a true humanist and reighteous person, you might have been protected by prayers of your parents, siblings, friends as well wishers and than by your wife. Those whole hearted blessings and prayers can well enable you, other than your own talent, dedication and hardwork, to be successful mentally and materialistically. Think about it.

I told you I believe in my Karma or Action or Behavior in this life time - my decisions and choices I make control the outcomes in my own life.... largely others actions don't affect me seriously. And I reject the Poorva Janma Karma totally for I have no Rebirth and there cannot be any Reincarnation of Soul. PJK is the Fancy or Fiction of the Theists!

"There are many a slip between the cup and the lip". Either with scientific brain we can consider this as some randomn phinomina that are just based on some unreasonbale probability OR with spiritual brain can consider this as our destiney based on our karma.

I agree with random phenomena, accidents and "Murphy's Laws".... I reject the spiritual brain, which is nothing but a hallucinating practice of the brain, or some sort of illusion.


Either way it is based on our poorva janma and present janma karma that may even change the perception at a certain point of time.

May the grace of God be allways upon you and your family...

 

[Nara]

.... what the Acharya did could be generalized but not what Stalin did - One sided generalization has to stop,

Absolutely, stop generalizing Stalin's crimes. The ranks of atheists include such luminaries as C.V. Raman and Chandrasekhar.

I am not that sophisticated and not that highly educated. I bow out.

If this is really so you shouldn't have come in with your guns blazing.

peace ...

 

[renuka]

Just for info Famous Thiest...The humble down to earth and briliant Dr APJ Abdul Kalam.
Still remember reading a book about him where he said he was reading the Quran the day his successful launch took place and his fellow co scientists were reading their respective religious text too.


Within every successful Theist or Atheist there is God..the difference is the former feels It and latter has not yet felt It.

 

[renuka]

Shri Yamaka,

You can find difference only in the manner you could understand all about Ishwara and the sanskrit slokas.

There is a saying in HINDI - "KALA AKSHAR BHAINS BARABAR". That means, "Black letters are similar to buffallows".

No offense meant. What I mean to say is a person who could not understand certain things would consider such things as nothing more than a crap.

I neither have mastered my self in Sanksrit nor in Vedas. But the deep rooted sense of divinity and spirituality along with certain basic knowledge and understanding in these subjects, thats all got incorporated in me through family, vedic discourses, rituals and self expereinces are enough for me to accept and revere vedas and spirituality.

Scientists can well be satisfied with their knowledge, brilliancy, success and related belief about the Nature. But they need not to mock on the people who are all religiously inclined, revere the cosmic vibes in vedic ryhms and slokas and grin without the sense of supremacy and orragancy.

Shri Yamaka, there are many chances of peace and happiness prevailing in your family due to your wife's spiritual inclination. A wife or husband need not to be demonstrating their spirituality even by visiting temples and or doing simple pooja at home. Prayers and good wishes seeking the grace of God in one's heart and mind by any one in the family is enough to bring in peace, protection, happiness and prosperity in a family.

When you grow up during all your past 40 years of life as Atheist but being a true humanist and reighteous person, you might have been protected by prayers of your parents, siblings, friends as well wishers and than by your wife. Those whole hearted blessings and prayers can well enable you, other than your own talent, dedication and hardwork, to be successful mentally and materialistically. Think about it.

"There are many a slip between the cup and the lip". Either with scientific brain we can consider this as some randomn phinomina that are just based on some unreasonbale probability OR with spiritual brain can consider this as our destiney based on our karma.


Either way it is based on our poorva janma and present janma karma that may even change the perception at a certain point of time.

May the grace of God be allways upon you and your family...

That was really well written Ravi...you made your deep understanding crystal clear.
keep it up..good work!!!

Lots of Love
Renu

 

[saidevo]

namste smt.ReNukA.

You said in post #388:
Within every successful Theist or Atheist there is God..the difference is the former feels It and latter has not yet felt It.

The atheist's logic in reply to this might be: If there is God in me, well I deny it, so it amounts to God himself denying God, thus it is certain that there is no God!

 

[renuka]

namste smt.ReNukA.

You said in post #388:
Within every successful Theist or Atheist there is God..the difference is the former feels It and latter has not yet felt It.

The atheist's logic in reply to this might be: If there is God in me, well I deny it, so it amounts to God himself denying God, thus it is certain that there is no God!

I am going to answer you in several ways:

1) Firstly when the curtain of Maya has not been lifted..no one Atheist or Theist is "Aham Brahmaasmi" range yet.So we are entitled to accept or reject anything.

2)See for an Atheist he will surely say "I am rejecting God theory"cos for all practical purposes God doesnt exists for him.
He will never say that "God himself is denying God"
If at all he says "God himself is denying God" we can say "OMG God exists!!! you just said it."

3)Last but not the least when an Atheist says there is No God we Theist can simply echo Neti Neti to him.
See both are just negation but different meanings.LOL!!!

 

[sravna]

The point I mentioned was God coming to visual presence of humans. Since the ultimate Reality (God) as per advaita is the parabrahmam and since this universe is mithya, the Reality just cannot manifest itself in this unrealistic world as it is. I think you are talking about creation in its general sense.

Dear Shri Sangom,

The higher reality is always the soul. The physical counterpart as per advaita is only relatively real. So the visual thing you see is not the God himself but his projection into the physical world.

 

[saidevo]

namaste Yamaka.

Yamaka said in post #180:
There are very many theories in Science as to how the world came into existence and how we all evolved from the "soup" of nitrogenous compounds with help of energy from Sun.

All that you say in your posts such as #380

• are only external interferences by scientific intelligence to simulate or clone existing life. How would this explain the evolution of the first form of one-celled life from the primordial soup by purely natural processes?

• If this is not possible, what was the external intelligence involved in the creation of the first form of life and its sophisticated evolution?

• If this is possible, why is it no longer happening, so scientists need to use their external intelligence?

In a lighter vein, by such subsitution of cellular nuclei for genetical ends, scientists can ensure that only atheists survive in future!

 

[sravna]

Since in the kali yuga when dharma is so much mutilated, immediate corrective actions happen so that there is no permanent damage. That is the reason why in kali yuga the dispensation of justice is more instant than in the other yugas.

We easily understand that being wicked gets the results of kukarma. You are punished and you get rid of the notion that evil can triumph. But less understood aspect of karma is the sukarma where benevolent deeds, thoughts are also discouraged by appropriate karmic reactions. The fact that you are born again and again even when you have positive balance of karma attests to the fact that only perfect balance, neither benevolence nor wickedness, is to be the goal of the soul.

In contrast to kukarma where the reaction time is fast and which characterizes kali yuga, sukarma I suppose has a longer reaction time. You are most benevolent during the satya yuga. To get rid of the notion that even such benevolence is not good is realized only in the evil kali yuga. Thus the actions in a kali yuga I suppose would have reactions in kali yuga itself whereas the reactions to actions in satya yuga will mostly have to wait till the kali yuga.

 

[renuka]

Dear Srvana,

You wrote:

But less understood aspect of karma is the sukarma where benevolent deeds, thoughts are also discouraged by appropriate karmic reactions. The fact that you are born again and again even when you have positive balance of karma attests to the fact that only perfect balance, neither benevolence nor wickedness, is to be the goal of the soul.

I guess a positive balance still denotes attachment that means we havent gone beyond the Gunas yet.
Interestingly enough I just read recently that the word Guna has another meaning besides the well know meaning "attributes/qualities".
Guna also can mean thread/string so I guess thats why Gunas bind us.

 

[subbudu1]

Let us look at it from a practical perspective. Does anyone know how karma works.

Let us take the case of a person who performs an action. That action is frozen in a time . How does it get recorded who performs that action and how is this karma's fruits administered to give it back to the Individual. Why is this speed of propagation of karma faster in kali yuga.

 

[renuka]

Let us look at it from a practical perspective. Does anyone know how karma works.

Let us take the case of a person who performs an action. That action is frozen in a time . How does it get recorded who performs that action and how is this karma's fruits administered to give it back to the Individual. Why is this speed of propagation of karma faster in kali yuga.

Karma is recorded in the Chitta portion of the Antahkarana.Chitta is known as the repository of memories and this Chitta portion is situated in the Subtle body that leaves the gross body upon death.

So Chitta is like an individualized microchip for each one of us.
Action is not actually frozen in time but rather leaves an imprint in the sands of time.

Karmic cycle works like a bank account.You deposit actions both good or bad in it.
Every transaction is recorded in the microchip of the Chitta.

For each input deposited in the account there will be a output in equal intensity like Newtons Third law.

One is liberated when he has zero bank balance that is he has exhausted his account and has no merit or demerit to bind him anymore with repeated births.
I think Sravna was talking about an equilibrium state of karmic balance in his above post.

Coming to Kali Yuga being a high speed Yuga...I guess we can see it this way..
in a chemical reaction at one point it reaches equilibrium and its hasten by a catalyst.
Hence we can treat Kali Yuga as a catalyst for us to reach equilibrium as soon as possible.

Why is it faster in Kali Yuga..I am not too sure??
Have you got any idea??
I can only think on medical grounds..when a person is seriously ill we take immediate measure to treat him/her.
So I guess all of us are ill with the disease of Kali and the "Bheshajam Bhava Roginaam"(Divine Physician) will treat us as soon as possible.
Its up to us to locate His Clinic!!!

P.S My post might sound sans logic to some but its for benefit of all I have written this and welcome anyone else to add in info.

 

[sravna]

Let us look at it from a practical perspective. Does anyone know how karma works.

Let us take the case of a person who performs an action. That action is frozen in a time . How does it get recorded who performs that action and how is this karma's fruits administered to give it back to the Individual. Why is this speed of propagation of karma faster in kali yuga.

Dear Shri Subbudu,

Consider two persons D and K. Both commit sins but K commits more serious sins and more frequently. Who becomes incorrigible faster if he is not checked? Obviously K. That is the reason the more major and frequent the sins are just as in kali yuga, the faster the reactions appear.

My answer to your query as to how the actions are recorded is, it is there in the soul. The soul gets attached to a body that is apt for it. Since you know even scientifically that the nature of the body or the genes determine the nature of living to a large extent. The other factor that determines a person's nature of life is environment. This includes the family, friends, the culture of the place etc. Since the effects of these in the previous births is recorded in the soul, the right combination of these for the present birth is based on that information. Basically both the nature and the environment in the present birth have to fit in with that of the past.The right nature and the environment happens if born at a certain place and time in the universe. The alignment of planet, stars etc. carry this information. That is my hypothesis

 

[sangom]

Let us look at it from a practical perspective. Does anyone know how karma works.

Let us take the case of a person who performs an action. That action is frozen in a time . How does it get recorded who performs that action and how is this karma's fruits administered to give it back to the Individual. Why is this speed of propagation of karma faster in kali yuga.

The Buddhist pov which somehow appeals to me, though it is also not 100% satisfactory, is as under:

Person A goes on performing Karma without any forethought as his senses lead him to. The results (reaction) of these Karmas have to be experienced. Since nothing will be left of A upon his death (Buddhism did not believe in Atma, its reincarnation, etc.), some new life B - either human or some other life form - originates in order to experience the reactions of A's karmas, both the good and bad results. Similarly some new C life will come into being to experience the results of B's karmas and so on.

If A's karmas are extremely potent - good or bad - and more than one life form is required to experience and expend all the results thereof, two or more life forms may originate out of A's own Karmas, just as one can light any number of fresh candles with on lit candle.

Here, the unsatisfactory point is that I can jolly well be a debaucher or murderer in my life and thus create another fellow who might (?) suffer for it! No one knows how it works. Buddha preached to his followers to feel for others and expected them to be more careful lest they by their karma, give rise to trouble for others. But in our parent Hindu religion with its emphasis on each individual and the liberation of that atma, etc., probably our lawgivers of ancient days correctly judged the pulse of our folks and made some changes to make it appear that "as you sow so you reap", so that it sinks more forcefully in people's minds, imho.

 

[prasad1]

Is it too much to accept to differ? We are all intelligent people here. We are not going to convert anybody. People who convert usually do not know their position at the present, and are impressionable, and readily accept a new theory. Sometimes conversion is purely convenient, or is forced.

All this Papa, punya, swarga, narka, etc are invention of human being to bring an order to human society. No other living thing has to worry about it. Every religion has do and donts and it varies depending on place and time.
We all live by our own set of values. Prisons are full of believers and non-believers alike.
We should abide by laws of nature, consequence are immediate. Try defying gravity by flying out from roof a ten story building.
We have to abide by the laws of society, you will be caught, and punished.
We should abide by our own value, the inner self will punish us. This is the most tricky one as no written, or oral tradition is going to help.
Defining this value system, and to motivate we resort to religion, God, Karma, rebirth, etc.
So the debate goes on.