Tambrahms to become extinct by 2035

[sangom]

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Dear Shri Sangom,

No doubt it is very conducive for learning Vedas in a Veadpata sala under the Guri Sishya parampara...But it does not stop any one from learning the Vedas..For example ex TCS Head honcho Rama Durai or Ex Eicher Head Sandilya

Shri Gane,

This is a typical reply which evades the original question; very characteristic of the self-annihilating mindset of tabras!
My point was, how many tabra parents are ready to send their sons to a Vedapaathasaala instead of to an engineering or medical college when they are able to afford the latter; and you come out with two isolated instances and that too not clear whether these two people themselves have joined a vedapaathasaala or have sent their sons! Two brahmins obviously cannot make any social change. Kindly come out with a list of at least 100 similar parents, for a beginning.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

of late I am enjoying the religious discourses by one Sri.Dushyant Sridhar in YOU TUBE.
I understand he did his Engineering in Blits,Pilani and employed in TCS.
There are some persons like Sri.Dushyant who are attracted towards the religious direction,but
the statement by Sri.Sangom that no parent desire to admit their children in 'Vedapatasallas'as a first preference
is the real FACT.

 

[Vaagmi]

Sangom in 210:

Dear Shri Sravna,
Both the points contained in the above post, are, not factual, imo.
1) That "the brahmins have something that is different and more importantly something useful to offer to others." is a myth. Brahmins or the brAhmaNa varna somehow came to be regarded as the "highest class or group of people" in a certain social set-up. They also became, by force of circumstances, the "intermediaries" between a godhead which was more perceived to lie outside of the living devotee, rather than being within that devotee himself (I am knowingly omitting the 'herself' part, because the brAhmaNa religion did not look upon woman as anything more than a chattel of the male.).
Having thus become the crux of the society, somehow, all the efforts of the brAhmaNas have been, historically, to secrete whatever knowledge they had and not to disseminate it. Such an effort can be justified because historically, the brAhmaNas (at least the vast majority of them) had no other skill except, the knowledge and the use of the scriptures to pose themselves as intermediaried between Man and his (foolishly imagined) external god.
For the last two centuries or so, most brAhmaNas have virtually dissociated themselves from learning those scriptures, understanding those and using such skill and knowledge to eke out a living as intermediaries between Man & god. The "brahmins" today, are mostly an "advantaged" labour class (not withstanding the usual grumblings about the reservation system) which will move anywhere where there is a chance to make more money and live a life full of maximum materialistic comforts.
Hence, such a brahmin class has nothing unique left with itself, which can be offered to others as useful.

2) By the same token, the tambrahm or the extended brahmin class in India does not any longer represent anything spiritual, other than the bottled variety which is favoured even by some temple priests and vaadhyars, etc., not to speak of the ordinary brahmins. The good thing today is that our scriptures and the secret knowledge of brahmins is no longer secret and can be accessed by any one anywhere in the world.

My views on this. (first of the two posts in which I intend to present my ideas)

1. There is a lot of abstract thinking involved in understanding the God concept. God concept can never be proved by pure reason fully like other scientific principles and facts. From this basic fact branch out two schools of thought . One would say there is no God because the idea is not supported by empiricism. The other would say God does exist perhaps because empiricism is not the proper tool to understand that idea. This group branches out into a detailed analysis of the very process of knowing and consciousness and in a round about way hypothesizes that God idea’s reality is also a possibility. We won’t go into all that now. Let us take here the latter group which believes in the God concept. This group over the generations has done a lot of abstract thinking-abstract because the very idea of God is abstract-and has recorded its impressions. In Hinduism, the vedic religion, this process of recording of impressions has been facilitated by what was already available in Vedas from time immemorial. These impressions or the quintessence of spiritual knowledge of generations of gifted thinkers is available in Vedas and various supporting religious literature. However these recordings are in exotic syntax in a language which is not understandable to every one. These are the impressions where in aphorisms (sutras) the God idea is presented by our ancestors and this is what is quoted here by Sangom in his post #219 as follows:

(......As example, after having propounded "तत् त्वं असि, अहं ब्रह्मास्मि, ब्रह्मैवाहमस्मि, सन्ततँ शिलाभिस्तु लम्बत्याकोशसन्निभम् । तस्यान्ते सुषिरँ सूक्ष्मं । तस्मिन् सर्वं प्रतिष्ठितम् ।" (tat tvaṃ asi, ahaṃ brahmāsmi, brahmaivāhamasmi, santatam̐ śilābhistu lambatyākośasannibham | tasyānte suṣiram̐ sūkṣmaṃ | tasmin sarvaṃ pratiṣṭhitam |), etc., how/why was it that this line of thinking or introspection is mostly overshadowed by worship of one external god or the other?)

To understand the cryptic and summary statements like tat tvam asi, aham brahmAsmi,brahmaivAhamasmi etc., there are very exhaustive bashyams. But at some point in the spiritual and civilizational history of the Indian society, there came a stage when the majority of the masses were not either capable of or were not interested in understanding all the intricate nuances of the God idea. They were too busy with their existential struggle and were willing to only believe that there existed a God and that is that. Brahmins who were mostly given to abstract thinking abilities, found this position some what unacceptable because here they have something very good to offer and the people are not inclined to take it. So the need to simplify the God idea. The first requirement in this endeavour was to bring God nearer to the common man. The common man can worship a hero not a distant God idea and worshiping is the first step in accepting the God idea. So God had to be shown in the anthropomorphous forms of heroes with unblemished desirable qualities. And there was enough material in the timeless scriptures which spoke of the Five levels of God’s existence. They are 1. Parathvam 2.Vyuham 3.Vibhavam 4. AntharyAmithvam and 5. ArchAvatAram. The ApaurushEya Vedas speak about all these five levels. These five levels are beautifully explained by the following tamil aphorism:

பூகதஜலம்(underground water) போலே அந்தர்யாமித்துவம்; ஆவரண ஜலம்(the faraway water beyond the firmament/space) போலே பரத்துவம்; பாற்கடல் (the legendary milky ocean water) போலே வியூகம்; பெறுக்காறு (water in the river in spate)போலே விபவம்; அதிலே தேங்கின மடுக்கள்(water in dams and irrigation tanks)போலே அர்ச்சாவதாரம்.Archai is the idol of God in which form he is worshipped in various temples on earth. Vuham is the form in which God is visualized by Yogis and these forms are called vAsudEva, Samkarshana, Prathyumna and Anirudhdha. They are not for ordinary folks to visualize. Vibhava are the avataras that God assumes to come down to the earth(Sri Rama, Sri Krishna etc.,).

As explained above the five levels are not for everyone in this world. They are for different people depending on each one’s spiritual progress. This is the story of the idol worship in Hinduism. As explained above it is a system of worship pregnant with a lot of meaning. It is not paganism as derisively called by alien civilizations. The learned Brahmins because of their knowledge of the truth-the five states of the God Entity-have helped the ordinary man(this may include some Brahmins too) who have no time or inclination for abstract, complex and involved thinking to understand the God concept within their own reference coordinates. In the process they assumed the role of a teacher and that came naturally to them. They never usurped it from any one or arrogantly assigned that position to themselves with any ulterior motive. The motive, if any, was only altruistic. So if tat twam asi is at one level and the anthropomorphous form of idol in a temple is at another level there is no mutual contradiction between the two concepts of God. The former is a highly nuanced, abstract expression of God idea while the later is a ‘here and now’ presentation of that same idea in a remarkably simple form. And both these have their origin in the Vedas.

Any system is only as good as the practitioners of that system. If there are some temples in which Brahmins behave like arrogant intermediaries it is their failing and the failing of those worshippers of that temple who acquiesce in it. (​will be continued in the second part)

 

[Vaagmi]

Shri Gane,

This is a typical reply which evades the original question; very characteristic of the self-annihilating mindset of tabras!
My point was, how many tabra parents are ready to send their sons to a Vedapaathasaala instead of to an engineering or medical college when they are able to afford the latter; and you come out with two isolated instances and that too not clear whether these two people themselves have joined a vedapaathasaala or have sent their sons! Two brahmins obviously cannot make any social change. Kindly come out with a list of at least 100 similar parents, for a beginning.

Dear Sangom,

Why this binary thinking at all? Engineering and medical education can coexist with vedas. A student who goes to an Engineering or medical college can also attend the veda classes and there are youngsters who do that. I did that when I was young. My parents had the good sense to send me to both streams simultaneously. One for survival in a ever changing world and the other to know the truth so that an anchor is in place preventing listless drifting when money is made and power comes your way because of the education in which you have excelled. And there are many parents like mine. Vedas take a lot of time to learn and complete the course. But if that is not possible at least whatever can be learnt in the limited time at our disposal can be learnt. My father thought that way and he gave me that education too. And I am only richer by that acquisition. Later in life when I got time I acquired further knowledge in vedas on my own effort by approaching a good teacher. If this is not happening with all youngsters it is the fault of the parents and not that of the youngsters.

 

[renuka]

I agree with Vaagmi Ji...what is so difficult studying both side by side?

Especially when its so damn easy for any TB to do so cos there is no one to tell you guys that "hey you cant study Vedas cos you are NB or a female or God knows what" and further more its so easy to get a teacher or a Guru for anything in India..those who are living in other countries like the so called westernized PIOs(LOL) take so much effort on our own to gain religious knowledge without even having a Guru..so what is the excuse in India??


I can clearly say that interest is lacking..thats all.

Many people these days feel..that how will religious knowledge help us in future to earn money?

That is the only thing that comes to most parents minds which I can not understand at all cos gaining any knowledge of any kind adds to our intellect and wisdom..something money can never buy.

So generally speaking I feel there is no excuse for a TB to not know Vedas on his fingertips.

 

[vgane]

Shri Gane,

This is a typical reply which evades the original question; very characteristic of the self-annihilating mindset of tabras!
My point was, how many tabra parents are ready to send their sons to a Vedapaathasaala instead of to an engineering or medical college when they are able to afford the latter; and you come out with two isolated instances and that too not clear whether these two people themselves have joined a vedapaathasaala or have sent their sons! Two brahmins obviously cannot make any social change. Kindly come out with a list of at least 100 similar parents, for a beginning.

Look at our tradition...When kingdoms patronized, learning of Vedas flourished..Now in the democratic polity, is State sponsoring this...Is there discernible private funding..The answer is no..There a handful of people learning Vedas now which is mainly on account of the parents push and a few philanthropists who are supporting this...

A few have also become Professionals

Look at this writeup on Satya who moved from Veda Paata sala to Engineering..This is an old article

Mixing Vedas and code in new-age India - Livemint

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Shri Gane,

This is a typical reply which evades the original question; very characteristic of the self-annihilating mindset of tabras!
My point was, how many tabra parents are ready to send their sons to a Vedapaathasaala instead of to an engineering or medical college when they are able to afford the latter; and you come out with two isolated instances and that too not clear whether these two people themselves have joined a vedapaathasaala or have sent their sons! Two brahmins obviously cannot make any social change. Kindly come out with a list of at least 100 similar parents, for a beginning.

Everybody wants to have a decent living Sir.

If courses from Vedapaathasaala gives good income, many people will prefer it. Of late, Namasangirthanam gains lot of importance, since it fetches good income. One popular Carnatic Musician, apart from regular carnatic concerts, performs Namasangirthanam also.

All Brahmins require modern education to have decent living. Vedas and other religious texts can be studied part time and can be used if possible. I have come across lot of Chartered Accountants chanting Rudram, Chemakam etc. during Pradosham in Kapaleeswarar Temple.

At present, these religious texts in Sanskrit have support primarily from Brahmins. I don't know how many Brahmins will help those who have this as their profession.

 

[Vaagmi]

Renuka,

your #228 for reference:

Especially when its so damn easy for any TB to do so cos there is no one to tell you guys that "hey you cant study Vedas cos you are NB or a female or God knows what" and further more its so easy to get a teacher or a Guru for anything in India..those who are living in other countries like the so called westernized PIOs(LOL) take so much effort on our own to gain religious knowledge without even having a Guru..so what is the excuse in India??

There is no restriction on NBs or Females studying vedas. It was an interlude in the history when such restrictions were practiced by people who gave more importance to smrithi in preference to sruthi. They were ignorant. Subject to certain discipline everyone is eligible to learn vedas. This was the position even in ancient times - pre info-explosion. Now post that anyone can learn vedas, smritis, upanishads and everything without any restriction and even without any discipline. They can learn them just to pick carefully any holes that may appear to them and attack vedas on that basis and along with that the Bs. This is just to correct a misconception in the minds of people that vedas were restricted to some groups only. This matter has been discussed already in this forum and I had even quoted extensively from the vedas to prove that vedas were not restricted to any one group. Please go to the archives.

 

[ashwin_ash]

I agree with Vaagmi Ji...what is so difficult studying both side by side?

Especially when its so damn easy for any TB to do so cos there is no one to tell you guys that "hey you cant study Vedas cos you are NB or a female or God knows what" and further more its so easy to get a teacher or a Guru for anything in India..those who are living in other countries like the so called westernized PIOs(LOL) take so much effort on our own to gain religious knowledge without even having a Guru..so what is the excuse in India??


I can clearly say that interest is lacking..thats all.

Many people these days feel..that how will religious knowledge help us in future to earn money?

That is the only thing that comes to most parents minds which I can not understand at all cos gaining any knowledge of any kind adds to our intellect and wisdom..something money can never buy.

So generally speaking I feel there is no excuse for a TB to not know Vedas on his fingertips.

Your sarcasm is dripping, but the truth is very very few know the vedas or whatever. It doesn't help in acquiring material comforts. And what does one gain with 'spiritual growth'? Wasting productive years in mastering dead languages such as Greek, Latin, even Sanskrit doesn't aid in any kind of growth.

There were 'evolved souls' like a godman from Puttaparthi in India who could even fly like a bird. But who knows if he was 'spiritually' grown up?

 

[tks]

I agree with Vaagmi Ji...what is so difficult studying both side by side?

Especially when its so damn easy for any TB to do so cos there is no one to tell you guys that "hey you cant study Vedas cos you are NB or a female or God knows what" and further more its so easy to get a teacher or a Guru for anything in India..those who are living in other countries like the so called westernized PIOs(LOL) take so much effort on our own to gain religious knowledge without even having a Guru..so what is the excuse in India??


I can clearly say that interest is lacking..thats all.

Many people these days feel..that how will religious knowledge help us in future to earn money?

That is the only thing that comes to most parents minds which I can not understand at all cos gaining any knowledge of any kind adds to our intellect and wisdom..something money can never buy.

So generally speaking I feel there is no excuse for a TB to not know Vedas on his fingertips.

Dr Renu -

TB is just an identity which may or may not be accompanied by certain traditions, culture and practices. There is still diversity to these customs and there is really no homogeneous group in terms of traditions and practices. Only thing that may be common (but unverifiable) is the ancestors were relegated to supposedly to life of learning without going after money and direct power.

This all disintegrated in the last hundred years or more. So any generalization of TB or non-TB to me is not meaningful anymore than generalization about any other group. So there are no 'us guys' in my experience

There are many other assumptions that I want to question.

1. "there is no one to tell you guys that "hey you cant study Vedas cos you are NB or a female or God knows what" - there is no one tell about anything to anyone - period. Why should anyone listen if a Joe Blow says something even if that person is from a mutt?. It is irrelevant if someone said that to someone they cannot study many years ago. In today's world (and for the past 50 years or more) there are no such impediments. The issue today is lack of money and lack of free time regardless of what community/identity one may have.

2. " further more its so easy to get a teacher or a Guru for anything in India" - Guru to teach chanting and Sanskrit may be easier. But properly qualified teacher who can teach B.Gita and Upanishad in the context of leading a life of peace is practically unavailable. Most often one cannot tell if a teacher is even qualified. There are many new age teachers who are propagating incorrect knowledge in my view and listeners will find contradictions during actual applications. Learning to chant is not a fun activity if it is done without context of why which is never taught in most of the Patashalas that I know.

3. "PIOs(LOL) take so much effort on our own to gain religious knowledge without even having a Guru..s" - Unfortunately their knowledge tends to be very superficial and hodgepodge of ideas thrown here and there that reveal the issues when a person confronts a real world problem of a serious kind.

Regards

 

[tks]

Sangom in 210:



My views on this. (first of the two posts in which I intend to present my ideas)

1. There is a lot of abstract thinking involved in understanding the God concept. God concept can never be proved by pure reason fully like other scientific principles and facts. From this basic fact branch out two schools of thought . One would say there is no God because the idea is not supported by empiricism. The other would say God does exist perhaps because empiricism is not the proper tool to understand that idea. This group branches out into a detailed analysis of the very process of knowing and consciousness and in a round about way hypothesizes that God idea’s reality is also a possibility. We won’t go into all that now. Let us take here the latter group which believes in the God concept. This group over the generations has done a lot of abstract thinking-abstract because the very idea of God is abstract-and has recorded its impressions. In Hinduism, the vedic religion, this process of recording of impressions has been facilitated by what was already available in Vedas from time immemorial. These impressions or the quintessence of spiritual knowledge of generations of gifted thinkers is available in Vedas and various supporting religious literature. However these recordings are in exotic syntax in a language which is not understandable to every one. These are the impressions where in aphorisms (sutras) the God idea is presented by our ancestors and this is what is quoted here by Sangom in his post #219 as follows:

(......As example, after having propounded "तत् त्वं असि, अहं ब्रह्मास्मि, ब्रह्मैवाहमस्मि, सन्ततँ शिलाभिस्तु लम्बत्याकोशसन्निभम् । तस्यान्ते सुषिरँ सूक्ष्मं । तस्मिन् सर्वं प्रतिष्ठितम् ।" (tat tvaṃ asi, ahaṃ brahmāsmi, brahmaivāhamasmi, santatam̐ śilābhistu lambatyākośasannibham | tasyānte suṣiram̐ sūkṣmaṃ | tasmin sarvaṃ pratiṣṭhitam |), etc., how/why was it that this line of thinking or introspection is mostly overshadowed by worship of one external god or the other?)

To understand the cryptic and summary statements like tat tvam asi, aham brahmAsmi,brahmaivAhamasmi etc., there are very exhaustive bashyams. But at some point in the spiritual and civilizational history of the Indian society, there came a stage when the majority of the masses were not either capable of or were not interested in understanding all the intricate nuances of the God idea. They were too busy with their existential struggle and were willing to only believe that there existed a God and that is that. Brahmins who were mostly given to abstract thinking abilities, found this position some what unacceptable because here they have something very good to offer and the people are not inclined to take it. So the need to simplify the God idea. The first requirement in this endeavour was to bring God nearer to the common man. The common man can worship a hero not a distant God idea and worshiping is the first step in accepting the God idea. So God had to be shown in the anthropomorphous forms of heroes with unblemished desirable qualities. And there was enough material in the timeless scriptures which spoke of the Five levels of God’s existence. They are 1. Parathvam 2.Vyuham 3.Vibhavam 4. AntharyAmithvam and 5. ArchAvatAram. The ApaurushEya Vedas speak about all these five levels. These five levels are beautifully explained by the following tamil aphorism:

2. பூகதஜலம்(underground water) போலே அந்தர்யாமித்துவம்; ஆவரண ஜலம்(the faraway water beyond the firmament/space) போலே பரத்துவம்; பாற்கடல் (the legendary milky ocean water) போலே வியூகம்; பெறுக்காறு (water in the river in spate)போலே விபவம்; அதிலே தேங்கின மடுக்கள்(water in dams and irrigation tanks)போலே அர்ச்சாவதாரம்.Archai is the idol of God in which form he is worshipped in various temples on earth. Vuham is the form in which God is visualized by Yogis and these forms are called vAsudEva, Samkarshana, Prathyumna and Anirudhdha. They are not for ordinary folks to visualize. Vibhava are the avataras that God assumes to come down to the earth(Sri Rama, Sri Krishna etc.,).

As explained above the five levels are not for everyone in this world. They are for different people depending on each one’s spiritual progress. This is the story of the idol worship in Hinduism. As explained above it is a system of worship pregnant with a lot of meaning. It is not paganism as derisively called by alien civilizations. The learned Brahmins because of their knowledge of the truth-the five states of the God Entity-have helped the ordinary man(this may include some Brahmins too) who have no time or inclination for abstract, complex and involved thinking to understand the God concept within their own reference coordinates. In the process they assumed the role of a teacher and that came naturally to them. They never usurped it from any one or arrogantly assigned that position to themselves with any ulterior motive. The motive, if any, was only altruistic. So if tat twam asi is at one level and the anthropomorphous form of idol in a temple is at another level there is no mutual contradiction between the two concepts of God. The former is a highly nuanced, abstract expression of God idea while the later is a ‘here and now’ presentation of that same idea in a remarkably simple form. And both these have their origin in the Vedas.

Any system is only as good as the practitioners of that system. If there are some temples in which Brahmins behave like arrogant intermediaries it is their failing and the failing of those worshippers of that temple who acquiesce in it. (​will be continued in the second part)

Sri Vaagmi

Just asking questions to understand your point of view..
1) Why does a human being need 'God' - For many God is not a concept.

2) Parathvam, Vyuham, Vibhavam, AntharyAmithvam, ArchAvatAram.
Do you have reference to these descriptions outside SV writings by Acharyas?

3) How is "Tat Tvam Asi, Svetaketu" is understood within SV context? I only know an explanation that in its interpretation violates Grammar rules in order to fit the meaning to the the SV model...

Thanks

 

[krish44]

What do we gain by learning/ reading the scriptures? One might as well relax with a good novel. Scriptures provide an insight into spirituality, but will that provide us our salaries? People with lots of money to spare can probably afford to spend their lives mastering the scriptures, but of what use is it to man who is destined to go back to the earth someday? Even many animals lead fulfilling lives, I don't think they read the scriptures.

I am tempted to agree to agree with you . I personally would prefer live life to the fullest enjoying all the materialistic joys possible as we have to return to mother earth one day. I would like spare sometime for the disadvantaged of this world to make a difference to their lives. this in my opinion a better alternative to spiritual pursuits we have limited time available in our lives and we have to make a judicious choice how to use it

 

[Vaagmi]

This is in reply to Sangom's post # 210 in two parts. For the first part please read post #226 by me. Given below is the part 2 of my views.

The next is about the perspective that the Brahmins bring to the table anywhere. Because they are rooted in spirituality, there is always a raw courage which comes out of knowledge and a selfless determination to persist with ideas which are noble. It is a different story that in modern India the tyranny of the numbers helps the mobocracy thrive much against the noble ideas that the Brahmins bring in. A reservation system which was brought in while drafting the constitution to help the really exploited people was one such noble idea. It has been completely sabotaged and wrecked from inside by the mobocracy which got it extended liberally to the exploiters too. And it is derisively referred to as “not withstanding the usual(?) grumblings about the reservation system” here by Sri Sangom. The same is the story of the history of labour movement in India. As long as the leadership of the communist parties were in the hands of Brahmins (to the extent that the DK used to call communists as poonoolists), there was selfless service to the exploited people. With time, as things changed because of the mobocracy, the leadership changed hands and the trade unionism became synonimous communism and union leaders became parasites and pests. They sabotaged and wrecked the welfare of the society from inside. Just one example: the monumental shame that befell india’s financial systems when Harshad Mehta swindled and cheated with his massive “security Scam”, very few (even today many do not know the real story) knew that it all emanated from the basic kernel of the trade union’s reckless militancy in the RBI. The employees of RBI were refusing to update their ledgers (of SGL accounts of banks) and were stiffly resisting the mechanization of those operations too. That resulted in new innovative instruments like BR coming into practice which facilitated the massive scam to happen.

And at the macro level India achieved maximum economic growth with pathbreaking policy decisions taken by the top executive of the country only when we had Brahmins at the helm. I am talking about Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi, PV Narasimha Rao and Vajpayee here. Think about it the truth in what I say will be understood. So to conclude I would reiterate that Brahmins have everything positive, good and great to offer to the country whether they are speaking about spiritual matters as a learned sadhu or approving policies in office notes as Chief executive of the nation or a MNC. You can not simply ignore their contribution. When the nation does that it does that at its own peril and you can surely expect a juicy story of a massive scam in the offing.

 

[mkrishna100]

Dear Sangom,

Why this binary thinking at all? Engineering and medical education can coexist with vedas. A student who goes to an Engineering or medical college can also attend the veda classes and there are youngsters who do that. I did that when I was young. My parents had the good sense to send me to both streams simultaneously. One for survival in a ever changing world and the other to know the truth so that an anchor is in place preventing listless drifting when money is made and power comes your way because of the education in which you have excelled. And there are many parents like mine. Vedas take a lot of time to learn and complete the course. But if that is not possible at least whatever can be learnt in the limited time at our disposal can be learnt. My father thought that way and he gave me that education too. And I am only richer by that acquisition. Later in life when I got time I acquired further knowledge in vedas on my own effort by approaching a good teacher. If this is not happening with all youngsters it is the fault of the parents and not that of the youngsters.

Spot on and I agree with this . I have found that people who have studied both secular and Vedic subjects side by side ( studied both seriously ) lead more balanced and meaningful life .

 

[sravna]

I am tempted to agree to agree with you . I personally would prefer live life to the fullest enjoying all the materialistic joys possible as we have to return to mother earth one day. I would like spare sometime for the disadvantaged of this world to make a difference to their lives. this in my opinion a better alternative to spiritual pursuits we have limited time available in our lives and we have to make a judicious choice how to use it

Dear Shri Krish,

As I understand spiritual pursuit is something you do to elevate your soul or in other word try to rise above the baser thinking and refine oneself. From what you have written gives me the impression that you think it is about external activities say like going to temples, doing rituals and so on.

So a spiritual pursuit can never go waste and is time judiciously spent.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Sravna Sir,

You talk like an 'amul baby'! 'Living life to the fullest' has a different meaning! :lol:

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna Sir,

You talk like an 'amul baby'! 'Living life to the fullest' has a different meaning! :lol:

Dear Smt RR,

I did not comment on living life to the fullest. I was only guessing what is idea of spiritual pursuit may be from what he wrote.

 

[Raji Ram]

...... I did not comment on living life to the fullest. I was only guessing what is idea of spiritual pursuit may be from what he wrote.

Ok! Got it!

 

[thebigthinkg]

Well, all good/bad things in the world come to an end to start again in a different form.

If you research the history of Tambrahm, waves of immigrations at different points of time settled them into different sub-sects and kind of consolidated them. Now a different set of immigrations are dispersing them into different parts of the world. Maybe in 50 years from now, you will have an 'Americama', 'Africama' sub-sects of TamBrahm, who will marry only internal to them, will follow no current TamBrahm cultural elements, but follow a Amercianized/Africanized version of TamBrahm.

TamBrahm girls marrying Nayars or Muslims or Christians do not destroy the culture and ethics of TamBrahm. What is the use in marrying a TamBrahm boy who eats meat, drinks alcohol, does not do any niyamas and karmas, leads life as much astray as others..? How does that 'caste name' alone help..?

The current middle/old aged generation of TamBrahms who grew up in a 'reform oriented' society, who see themselves in light of what western world depicts them, mis-interpret their half-knowledge of vedas and sastras to justify whatever they say and do, have let down the next generation of people and mis-guided them to move away from satvik way of life, which is critical to exploration of knowledge.

They taught their youngsters that Vedas are not about knowledge, but about something called 'spirituality', which is against enjoying life and even against serving others. This made the youngsters to abandon all their niyamas and karmas including eating/drinking habits.

Reciting vedas blindly, without understanding them or understanding them in the light of what Maxmueller or Ralph-Griffith wrote, does not lead to any knowledge. Our ancestors just spent time in reciting the vedas and upanishads, as that was the only way they could store it and pass on the treasured knowledge. Now we have better methods of storage and passage. Now we need to research and understand what exactly Vedas are talking about. But that is not just with TamBrahms, but with all people who claim to inherit the Vedas.

Before talking about Vedas and patasalas, tambrahms should return to 'sattvik' way of life eschewing meat, liquor and performing our niyamas (like TSV) and karmas with sincerity. In the current economic environment if they do this, that itself is great. They would be spreading this way of life to more people and make them TamBrahms !!!

This sattvik way of life, which has an answer to several problems that TamBrahms are facing in their personal and professional life, is the starting point to be a TamBrahm. They will lead happier lives and others will copy them.

Spirituality is just a way of life that should gives us multiple perspectives, make us realize different dimensions and make our life an exploration of knowledge and extremely enjoyable every moment. Whether we are begging or afraid of meeting our immediate financial commitments, it should give us a balance of mind that enables us to think clearly and take decisions. It should help us to prioritize actions in our life very clearly with a long term perspective.

Remember, you are executing a part of that Supreme consciousness's will, which evolves us. Evolution will perish if you do not help it's cause and cherish you otherwise.

-TBT

 

[ashwin_ash]

Well, all good/bad things in the world come to an end to start again in a different form.

If you research the history of Tambrahm, waves of immigrations at different points of time settled them into different sub-sects and kind of consolidated them. Now a different set of immigrations are dispersing them into different parts of the world. Maybe in 50 years from now, you will have an 'Americama', 'Africama' sub-sects of TamBrahm, who will marry only internal to them, will follow no current TamBrahm cultural elements, but follow a Amercianized/Africanized version of TamBrahm.

TamBrahm girls marrying Nayars or Muslims or Christians do not destroy the culture and ethics of TamBrahm. What is the use in marrying a TamBrahm boy who eats meat, drinks alcohol, does not do any niyamas and karmas, leads life as much astray as others..? How does that 'caste name' alone help..?

The current middle/old aged generation of TamBrahms who grew up in a 'reform oriented' society, who see themselves in light of what western world depicts them, mis-interpret their half-knowledge of vedas and sastras to justify whatever they say and do, have let down the next generation of people and mis-guided them to move away from satvik way of life, which is critical to exploration of knowledge.

They taught their youngsters that Vedas are not about knowledge, but about something called 'spirituality', which is against enjoying life and even against serving others. This made the youngsters to abandon all their niyamas and karmas including eating/drinking habits.

Reciting vedas blindly, without understanding them or understanding them in the light of what Maxmueller or Ralph-Griffith wrote, does not lead to any knowledge. Our ancestors just spent time in reciting the vedas and upanishads, as that was the only way they could store it and pass on the treasured knowledge. Now we have better methods of storage and passage. Now we need to research and understand what exactly Vedas are talking about. But that is not just with TamBrahms, but with all people who claim to inherit the Vedas.

Before talking about Vedas and patasalas, tambrahms should return to 'sattvik' way of life eschewing meat, liquor and performing our niyamas (like TSV) and karmas with sincerity. In the current economic environment if they do this, that itself is great. They would be spreading this way of life to more people and make them TamBrahms !!!

This sattvik way of life, which has an answer to several problems that TamBrahms are facing in their personal and professional life, is the starting point to be a TamBrahm. They will lead happier lives and others will copy them.

Spirituality is just a way of life that should gives us multiple perspectives, make us realize different dimensions and make our life an exploration of knowledge and extremely enjoyable every moment. Whether we are begging or afraid of meeting our immediate financial commitments, it should give us a balance of mind that enables us to think clearly and take decisions. It should help us to prioritize actions in our life very clearly with a long term perspective.

Remember, you are executing a part of that Supreme consciousness's will, which evolves us. Evolution will perish if you do not help it's cause and cherish you otherwise.

-TBT

Evolution will never perish. New forms will evolve. Tambrams are not the vanguards or embodiments of "Sattvic" or "pure" ways of life. Tambrams are not moving away from their roots, rather they are evolving and exploring alternate lifestyles. There may now be others who might fill the void created by Tambrams eschewing their 'roots'.

 

[krish44]

Evolution will never perish. New forms will evolve. Tambrams are not the vanguards or embodiments of "Sattvic" or "pure" ways of life. Tambrams are not moving away from their roots, rather they are evolving and exploring alternate lifestyles. There may now be others who might fill the void created by Tambrams eschewing their 'roots'.

How true !who do you think will fill the void.is it worth filling?

 

[ashwin_ash]

How true !who do you think will fill the void.is it worth filling?

Let me cite an example of Kerala. That state is facing a severe paucity of priests ('Tantris'). Recently, Nairs have trained to be Tantris via a rigorous process. They are 'Sattvic' and have to maintain a spotless lifestyle. Also, Bihar and UP Brahmins have started undertaking priestly duties in Kerala.

I know this might be an obtuse answer, but I have no answers really. There won't be a 'void', per-se. Rather, society will adapt to new paradigms.

 

[krish44]

Dear Shri Krish,

As I understand spiritual pursuit is something you do to elevate your soul or in other word try to rise above the baser thinking and refine oneself. From what you have written gives me the impression that you think it is about external activities say like going to temples, doing rituals and so on.


So a spiritual pursuit can never go waste and is time judiciously spent.

Thanks for educating me on spiritual pursuits. I shall consider them when I run out of steam after sometime

 

[krish44]

Dear Sravna Sir,

You talk like an 'amul baby'! 'Living life to the fullest' has a different meaning! :lol:

RRji
be more charitable like Sravna ji.he has given me benefit of doubt. Sravna ji is my conscience keeper .When I do any wrong ,he will drill into me periodically to go spiritual and save my soul. My soul can go to heaven and no other place thanks to him

 

[Vaagmi]

Sri Vaagmi

Just asking questions to understand your point of view..
1) Why does a human being need 'God' - For many God is not a concept.

2) Parathvam, Vyuham, Vibhavam, AntharyAmithvam, ArchAvatAram.
Do you have reference to these descriptions outside SV writings by Acharyas?

3) How is "Tat Tvam Asi, Svetaketu" is understood within SV context? I only know an explanation that in its interpretation violates Grammar rules in order to fit the meaning to the the SV model...

Thanks

1. God is an object or a concept that is visualised and perceived by individuals in different ways depending on each one's proclivities to believe. Every human being do not consider that he/she needs the God. There are many for whom there is no God. This is a very old subject and a lot of discussion has been done in this forum in the past. If you read my post carefully I have right in the beginning made a provision for the non believers. Let them be in their domain. What I have written is for believers only. That too in the specific context of Sangom's question about brahmins diverting the high philosophical entity of God into an ordinary idol in temple to gain some kind of benefit for themselves. I would just say in reply to your question here, God if not needed for some one there is nothing to worry about it. In fact I was one such for some time. It is for the individual to decide whether he needs a God or not. Those who think that they need a God have sound reasons for that and that is all abstract thinking. Not a subject for a brief discussion here. It will be recycling the stuff.

2. I am a worm living in the Neem tree. I know only the neem and its juice. I gather that the five states of understanding the God entity has its origin in vedas-in upanishads to be precise. And I believe Saivism is as much a vedic religion as Vaishnavism.

3. About your question on the "Tat tvam asi" I will write separately about the vaishnavite view point.

Thank you.