Tambrahms to become extinct by 2035

[kunjuppu]

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vgane ji
It is highly unlikely that TBs headcount will reduce and TBs will require fertility clinics. They have survived centuries. They will think up of schemes to boost up their numbers. They may go away to exotic places to multiply faster and become a threat to others. see how many are going to vacation in foreign places. They will dilute their hard specs and marry other brahmins from all over india and whole world. In course of time they will demand a separate homeland like the jews.

krish, gane,

i feel that you are looking at the future with today's eyes and values.

to give you an idea of how much we have changed over the past 50 years, just two very specific tambram accepted features done without questioning prior to 1950s or even a bit later -

- shaving of widows, giving them naarmadi to wear, and shunning them to dark quarters of the house as 'ill omen'. if anyone has any doubts about this, i can refer a couple of books, written by tambrams like T. Janakiraman among others. reading TJ's marappasu now, and the novel begins with vivid description of this horrific disfigurement. i myself have witnessed one in triplicane brahma theertham in 1988, when i went to perform 10 thru 13th day obsequies for my dad.

- the concept of theetu. not just during the menstruating days of the female, during which the community norm was to ban the woman to a dark room, and worse, feed her left overs or if none available, watered rice/pickles and such, and a bare mat to sleep without pillows (again to revive the memories of those who have forgotten or those who do not know, i can refer books). there is one vivid chapter on it, written in an anthology by perumal murugan in saathiyum naanum, by vaa.krishnan called 'theetum theendaamaiym' (pp 79).

i believe both these above quoted articles to be authentic enough, and also documents of run of the mill common tambram practices of recent past.

sooo, technology, small families, changing attitudes towards women re empowerment equality education career and above all care & love, the willingnes of the family unit to ignore/challenge community norms and voices of relations, and many other things, has made us today, distinctively different from our even immediate ancestors.

the world is changing at a rate, as never before, and who knows what the values of our grand children will be. today, many tambram families go through poonal, more as a social responsibility, without the parent/son ever understanding the signficance of the whispering of the gayatri, or the concept of theetu/removal of the poonal to the ears, when peeing/pooing/seeing dalits, something in vogue till less than 50 years ago. how many of us know tambram youth, wearing the poonal, yet gorging away non veg food or imbibing alcohol? the poonal is no longer what it purports to signify. it is today a social ornament, by and large, and in many a houses, like my relatives', to be hung on the wall or into the garbage bin, the day after it is initiated, and to be seen once a year, if at all, at avani avittam.and (ofcourse) for wedding deaths anniversaries and some functions. no?

people who grew up in agraharams might still remember these, and though they have eschewed it, whether it be that they think these are not worthwhile passing on to the next generation, or simply, the next generation would not accept it.

our tambram girls, opting for NBs as spouses, have made a bold statement, that they do not care for tambram 'values' as they see it. just the same, as WE did not care for some of the practices of our ancestors. why is there so much criticism of our tambram girls' options re marriage today, when we can as a community, merrily discard inconvenient aspects of our heritage? but would not give the same benefit to our girls? something of a double standard at play here? or simply that we have not yet moved forward in our ideas to that level? or we have some self interest which goes against such a move by our girls? or maybe something else?

while we ourselves have selected discarded practices of our ancestors, who knows how much of our own habits would be deemed disdainful disgraceful to our descendents. but based on the past 50 years, one thing is certain - the values of our children will be different than that of us, no matter what we do, to convince them to 'status quo' - ie status quo of today, and not of our ancestors. those are gone for good. closed veda patasalas are not going to reopen. abandoned agraharams are not going to be re populated by tambrams. urbanization and global reach is our community's travel mantra today, and would likely to continue, unless come catastrophic changes happen outside of india.

the only good thing is that mortality is still a firm surety, and hopefully we would all have passed on before facing to situations, unsavoury to us.

 

[renuka]

We get up..go to work..come back home..go to sleep..cycle repeats..who knows what will happen tomorrow.. whether will we even be alive the next day.??...when our very daily existence itself is questionable... that is we ourselves might be extinct the next day..would anyone actually want to think about others becoming extinct?

So dont worry..be happy..no one knows whats going to happen.


Note: I somehow feel I am going to get some weird replies for this post of mine..anyway everyone is welcomed to reply ranging from members names starting with A to Z.

 

[tks]

1. The words and letters are just tools given by a language. There are several moments in life when words become absolutely inadequate to define/explain/convey or appreciate an idea. Most of the situations present this dilemma when you deal with the God idea. That is why it is a highly personal experience-yes experience which may or may not be possible to express with language-which has just to be experienced. An agnostic or an atheist may not be adequately expressing himself when he presents his idea of a "no god". We really do not know. So I personally feel that we can only find a small common denominator when we share our idea of a God with other similar souls while the larger numerator may be so large that the common denominator may be just a very minuscule one and can even be ignored. To take a real life example, my friend who faithfully goes to sabarimala every season, who takes a kavadi (complete with piercing his tongue) to the local murugan temple every thaipoosam baffles me. The kind of belief that he has is some thing which I am unable to understand. He has done his PhD in crystallography. However hard I try that kind of a fervor is beyond my experience and it can never come to me. But his understanding of God is not false just as mine is not false either. So at the end of the day I resign myself to the reality with the words of my teacher "yadha sakthi, yadha sampradhayam". This being a fourth quadrant activity, I enjoy whenever I come across someone here who understands my language (a larger common denominator!!) or a fierce atheist who questions every word of narration of my experience. I gain from both. So belief or no belief the pathways of thought processes are interesting and I enjoy understanding them and following them through the maze.

2. To make matters simple, I will give here the references where idol worship is indicated in scriptures. Reference to Vyuha and Antaryami swarupa is available in upanishads freely and I am sure you will be aware of it. Please refer to Sadvimsabrahmana of Sama veda Ch 10.-"atha yadasyayukthaani........nimilanthi" and here the worship of God as an idol is mentioned. Also please refer to pancharatra Agama where there is extensive reference to worship of God Vishnu in his 5 forms. And pancharatra Agama like many other agamas derive its authority and authenticity as a scriptural text from the fact that the sages like Sanatkumara, Bharatwaja, Atri, Kasyapa etc who are found to be the narrators and interlocutors are common to agamas as well as to vedas.

Thank you.

Sri Vaagmi

Thanks. Some additional comments ..

1. It will take several detailed steps but one can show the 'God' by most definitions cannot be an experience.. An experience that is objectified by our mind is just that - an experience in the mind. Indescribable experience is still an experience. Here I am referring to a set of verses in Kenopanishad loosely translated as

"The mind cannot imagine it; it is what makes the mind think. It is different from the known; yet it is not unknown. Those who feel they know Him know Him not. Those who know that anything amenable to the senses is not Him, they know Him best" .. Of course HIM could be HER or IT

One of the five Panchratra could be attributed to the above I suppose ..though I am unable to do that easily.

Having said this, the prescription is that as a starting point, but only a starting point for maturing our mind for knowledge is having the notion of Ishta-Devatha in order to take this abstract entity into something concrete that our mind can focus on. Your friend has his own Ishta Devatha. This kind of thinking - "have it your way" like the Burger King ad actually is a very ancient wisdom explained in one of the Upanishad.

In Brhadaranyaka Upanishad while discussing Brahman, Yajnavalkya is asked how many gods are there. He says that there are three hundred three thousand and three gods. When the question is repeated?He says, thirty three. When the question is again repeated he says, six. The he say 1 and a half ...Finally, after several repetitions he says ONE.


I personally cannot focus on concept of Bhakthi based on a story or glory of a Godhead. This Bhakthi notion has a concrete definition and understanding from what I have learnt from interpretation of Sri Sankara's writing. It will be a different topic of discussion requiring a lot more infrastructure not possible in a forum.

The number 330 thousand/million is symbolically is the total number of people in the world and 'each to his own' works since it all points to one and the same entity. By having the notion of Ishta Devatha 'God concept' ceases to be a concept . Chapter 10 of Gita actually gives many examples to spark the imagination to meditate upon ! But if experience that is indescribable forms a definition for you that works also !

2. Thanks for the reference

 

[krish44]

krish, gane,

i feel that you are looking at the future with today's eyes and values.

to give you an idea of how much we have changed over the past 50 years, just two very specific tambram accepted features done without questioning prior to 1950s or even a bit later -

- shaving of widows, giving them naarmadi to wear, and shunning them to dark quarters of the house as 'ill omen'. if anyone has any doubts about this, i can refer a couple of books, written by tambrams like T. Janakiraman among others. reading TJ's marappasu now, and the novel begins with vivid description of this horrific disfigurement. i myself have witnessed one in triplicane brahma theertham in 1988, when i went to perform 10 thru 13th day obsequies for my dad.

- the concept of theetu. not just during the menstruating days of the female, during which the community norm was to ban the woman to a dark room, and worse, feed her left overs or if none available, watered rice/pickles and such, and a bare mat to sleep without pillows (again to revive the memories of those who have forgotten or those who do not know, i can refer books). there is one vivid chapter on it, written in an anthology by perumal murugan in saathiyum naanum, by vaa.krishnan called 'theetum theendaamaiym' (pp 79).

i believe both these above quoted articles to be authentic enough, and also documents of run of the mill common tambram practices of recent past.

sooo, technology, small families, changing attitudes towards women re empowerment equality education career and above all care & love, the willingnes of the family unit to ignore/challenge community norms and voices of relations, and many other things, has made us today, distinctively different from our even immediate ancestors.

the world is changing at a rate, as never before, and who knows what the values of our grand children will be. today, many tambram families go through poonal, more as a social responsibility, without the parent/son ever understanding the signficance of the whispering of the gayatri, or the concept of theetu/removal of the poonal to the ears, when peeing/pooing/seeing dalits, something in vogue till less than 50 years ago. how many of us know tambram youth, wearing the poonal, yet gorging away non veg food or imbibing alcohol? the poonal is no longer what it purports to signify. it is today a social ornament, by and large, and in many a houses, like my relatives', to be hung on the wall or into the garbage bin, the day after it is initiated, and to be seen once a year, if at all, at avani avittam.and (ofcourse) for wedding deaths anniversaries and some functions. no?

people who grew up in agraharams might still remember these, and though they have eschewed it, whether it be that they think these are not worthwhile passing on to the next generation, or simply, the next generation would not accept it.

our tambram girls, opting for NBs as spouses, have made a bold statement, that they do not care for tambram 'values' as they see it. just the same, as WE did not care for some of the practices of our ancestors. why is there so much criticism of our tambram girls' options re marriage today, when we can as a community, merrily discard inconvenient aspects of our heritage? but would not give the same benefit to our girls? something of a double standard at play here? or simply that we have not yet moved forward in our ideas to that level? or we have some self interest which goes against such a move by our girls? or maybe something else?

while we ourselves have selected discarded practices of our ancestors, who knows how much of our own habits would be deemed disdainful disgraceful to our descendents. but based on the past 50 years, one thing is certain - the values of our children will be different than that of us, no matter what we do, to convince them to 'status quo' - ie status quo of today, and not of our ancestors. those are gone for good. closed veda patasalas are not going to reopen. abandoned agraharams are not going to be re populated by tambrams. urbanization and global reach is our community's travel mantra today, and would likely to continue, unless come catastrophic changes happen outside of india.

the only good thing is that mortality is still a firm surety, and hopefully we would all have passed on before facing to situations, unsavoury to us.

K saheb I see a morose statement that mortality is a firm surety and hoping that we would have passed on instead facing unsavoury things . all this with a smiley. cheer up .
the changes which have taken place such as giving up shaving of widows,getting rid of theetu are good for the community while there may be multiple opinions on poonal becoming a social ornamant to be displayed at weddings etc and non reciting gayatri mantra .
Our educated girls making a bold statement marrying Nbs and other religion entities. we parents are partly responsible. we have not created a proper forums for interaction between boys and girls . The discrimination in brahmin homes boys visavis girls and not giving girls edu oppurtunities given to boys is not good.No Freedom of choice for selection of right spouse and hanging on to horos. matching and good and bad stars,demanding dowry from edu. girls ,what else could be expected from these girls. They hang on to their class mates or colleagues in office ,caste be damned. Parents have failed to fulfill their expectations. parents have also a selfish interest to hang on to girls who are economic entities and parents try to extract money from them for marriage and dowry expenses in brahmin community and delaying their marriages.
girls have fast gone global ,going to liberal societies in US and such countries for work and better life
There is no need to lament . It is good for the girls.brahmin boys will find their own solutions . let some remain unmarried if they cannot accept the changes and change their mindset. I know many who are under the the thumbs of their parents waiting for TB girls with dowry demands as they feel they have a superior education in IITs and hold MNC jobs. even lord ganesha did not have wives. TB boys are modern ganeshas waiting for non existent TB girls

 

[auh]

Please keep it coming. Maybe we should keep this thread alive till 2035 and then perhaps, we could probably take a call on the status !

 

[kunjuppu]

K saheb I see a morose statement that mortality is a firm surety and hoping that we would have passed on instead facing unsavoury things . all this with a smiley. cheer up .
..................TB boys are modern ganeshas waiting for non existent TB girls

love the punch line at the end

re morosity. i did not intend to focus or highlight on that. as there is no moroseness on my part. i, for one, accept changes with equanimity. my own life, has been a hunger for change, which did not happen, but for my kids, what i consider as change, is de facto or taking for granted. hope that sentence made some sense.

not that i am an open windowed free for all, without prejudice. God knows that i have my share of it, and personally i think, we are defined by our prejudices. but IC marriages is not one of them. i think it is good for the long term for hindus, for without castes, we become onefold. it appears to be a pipedream, considering the mushrooming of caste outfits in tamil nadu (i dont know about other states) and all ganged up against the dalits.

and the rise of tamil nationalism which openly propagates across religions and castes, albeit under the cover anti hindu so far, and dominated by christians like seeman, who appears to have got away with his pan tamil message. so far. ... we will see.

 

[vgane]

I am not sure after 300+ posts we have touched an emotional chord with the fellow Brahmins...I am also not sure if Thambraas or other associations/ samoohams do the follow up activity be keeping in touch with the families

I recollect the following quote:

"If you have to go fast, you have to run alone

If you have go far, go together"

Through this website we are creating awareness, we are discussing the pros and cons on various issues ...But if we have to make an impact we need to be in touch with the masses and take the follow up action..The more you connect, the more you share the concern and build buy in

Not only action but review that & take the necessary course correction

If not it will be a wasted effort..You can call it as விழலுக்கு இறைத்த நீர்

For the execution, course correction & review -How and when is the million dollar question??

 

[krish44]

love the punch line at the end

re morosity. i did not intend to focus or highlight on that. as there is no moroseness on my part. i, for one, accept changes with equanimity. my own life, has been a hunger for change, which did not happen, but for my kids, what i consider as change, is de facto or taking for granted. hope that sentence made some sense.

not that i am an open windowed free for all, without prejudice. God knows that i have my share of it, and personally i think, we are defined by our prejudices. but IC marriages is not one of them. i think it is good for the long term for hindus, for without castes, we become onefold. it appears to be a pipedream, considering the mushrooming of caste outfits in tamil nadu (i dont know about other states) and all ganged up against the dalits.

and the rise of tamil nationalism which openly propagates across religions and castes, albeit under the cover anti hindu so far, and dominated by christians like seeman, who appears to have got away with his pan tamil message. so far. ... we will see.

k saheb ,
Our kids are getting some benefits of changes we had hoped for ourselves.
replacing of caste based reservations with income based as a congress leader dwivedi has suggested- is an idea whose time has not come.
the caste hostilities and violence- a byproduct of reservation policy has started harming the dalit and other such groups
tamil or language based nationalism are not good developments and lead to alienation of tamils everywhere
some changes will come about as an evolutionary process and some may be forced on us. let us hope for the best. I have a lot of faith in next generation . they will do more good than bad if left to themselves

 

[Raji Ram]

The suffix Iyer is not attached to the names of most of the tambrams. But in Mumbai even ladies have Iyer suffix.

Yesterday, I attended the Times Thyagaraja finals. A young boy studying in 8th standard took the audience to such a great level

by his singing that there was a thundering applause as soon as he finished! Wow! That kid is 'Karthik Iyer'.

He missed the title by just one mark! :second:

 

[Raji Ram]

I think more tambrams opt for a Hindu society without caste whereas others attach some prestige to their own caste!

 

[krish44]

I think more tambrams opt for a Hindu society without caste whereas others attach some prestige to their own caste!

there is naresh iyer also in singing profession. there was a nice film Mr And Mrs iyer where Mrs iyer protects a muslim from communal violence lending her husbands name.prestige is something which is deep rooted in our consciousness since birth and the brahmin legacy is passed on to us by our parents. we feel superior to others as a matter of belief while there may not be much evidence of our superiority. we are made to believe we have superior brains due to our genes. we are forced to use them to excel in education which we do by mostly slogging and harsh discipline. also in marriage market ,it is assumed that brilliance in education makes a person good . can there not be a crooked brilliant brahmin.?

 

[biswa]

I think more tambrams opt for a Hindu society without caste whereas others attach some prestige to their own caste!

RRji, I would like to have this statement notarised and hung on the wall of this forum.

 

[Raji Ram]

RRji, I would like to have this statement notarised and hung on the wall of this forum.

Dear Biswa Sir,

Brahmins are NOT supposed to be proud of their heritage, right?

 

[vgane]

All this IC/IR started with celebrities......You look at actors Vidya, Ajith, Prasanna, Bharath...All have gone for it in style...The common TB have followed it...Does it fetch more money & fame in the market if you marry that way..Latest is the VJ Siddharth Kannan

 

[renuka]

Dear Biswa Sir,

Brahmins are NOT supposed to be proud of their heritage, right?

RR ji,


What???

Then why in the Introduction thread countless times you find newbies introducing themselves as

"I am proud to be part of this community or proud to be Brahmin"

If we press control F and type the word Proud and search..It will certainly go right away to Introduction Post!LOL

BTW I think most communities are proud of their heritage.Many a times you hear people say 'I am from a respectable family blah blah" and indulge in self praise.We Indians are famous for this.

So I think everyone is guilty of this to a certain extent..show me a man who is not proud of at least something and I will show you a stiff in the morgue!LOL

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

See... you LOL when someone says 'I am proud to be a brahmin!'

That is why I wrote, 'Brahmins are NOT supposed to be proud of their heritage!'

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

See... you LOL when someone says 'I am proud to be a brahmin!'

That is why I wrote, 'Brahmins are NOT supposed to be proud of their heritage!'

Nope RR ji,

I LOL whenever I meet anyone who says they are proud of this or that..so its not Brahmin specific.

I even LOL at myself whenever I start to feel "proud" of anything to remind myself to come back to ground level.

But in a way you are right..I do LOL 2x when I see a Brahmin saying that cos I was always under the impression that a Brahmin is supposed to be Vidya Vinaya Sampanne.

Actually we respect a humble person more than a proud person.

 

[tks]

For a person with no hang ups they tend to accept themselves as who they are.
A healthy self esteem is necessary to function well in any society.

Most people are not enlightened to not feel a sense of pride about something in their life. It may be their wealth, that expensive house or car, their looks or looks of their spouse, their education or their heritage whatever that may be.

I have known Jewish friends say why they are the chosen people by God, I have known an Ethiopian who demonstrated the way he walks keeping his head high because their country was never colonized and have met people from all walks of life feeling a sense of pride about some attribute they feel a sense of ownership about...

So if someone says he is a proud of xxxx whatever that is it is fine by me.

Being proud may be a weakness and a person aspiring for higher things cannot will the pride away. It can happen only with right knowledge and effort and many do not see the need for such a knowledge.

Those that admonish such statements by anyone including by those wearing a tag as Brahmin tend to have a much larger problem.

 

[indianassault]

All this IC/IR started with celebrities......You look at actors Vidya, Surya, Prasanna, Bharath...All have gone for it in style...The common TB have followed it...Does it fetch more money & fame in the market if you marry that way..Latest is the VJ Siddharth Kannan

Surya?? I thought he was Gounder..

 

[renuka]

Surya?? I thought he was Gounder..

You are right...Surya is a Gounder.

 

[Raji Ram]

When my son was doing his masters degree in MIT Boston, his professor had come down to Sing. Chennai on vacation.

We took him out for dinner. He refused to take spirited drinks and non.veg, saying that he needs to respect our culture.

Then he mentioned that the problem with South Indian boys is that many of them don't know how to brag! He observed

that an American student with the same level of IQ will be bragging all the time! Many of our boys are really humble!

 

[Raji Ram]

Surya?? I thought he was Gounder..

​Amunga!

 

[renuka]

When my son was doing his masters degree in MIT Boston, his professor had come down to Sing. Chennai on vacation.

We took him out for dinner. He refused to take spirited drinks and non.veg, saying that he needs to respect our culture.

Then he mentioned that the problem with South Indian boys is that many of them don't know how to brag! He observed

that an American student with the same level of IQ will be bragging all the time! Many of our boys are really humble!

Dear RR ji,

What is this yaar??

TB boys dont know how to brag.

TB boys dont know how to chase girls?


You better do something RR ji and teach TB boys how to brag and chase!

BTW most of the USA Geeks do not brag too cos Geeks are not considered Hot..it will be some good looking hunk with some average IQ and who excels in sports that will be considered hot by chicks in US and those are the types that keep bragging.

Over all those with high IQ seldom brag.

 

[sarang]

One must be proud of everything he has - birth, heritage, education, nationhood, parents, lineage and a host of other things. We all accept the management, self improvement, psychologists' mantra - you are what you think you are. One must be proud of everything he has and values.

Our culture has imbibed in us this value - when we say we are superior does not mean or follow that others are inferior. We have been brain washed by the british and invaders for known reasons and some of us have internalised this. All communities have the right to consider themselves as 'superior'. This is not racism. Simple change in the mindset - accept your greatness, accept and acknowledge others' greatness - is enough to clear self doubts and self aggrandizement. Feeling of superiority and remaining humble are not mutually exclusive attributes. Garvam is not haughtiness.

i wonder when the self improvement management gurus tell the seminar participants 'you convince yourself you are on top of this world' they do not mean that you stand over the heads of others' and press them down.

To sum up, calling myself a brahmin I am not a threat to any one who claims he is not a brahmin, by claiming that I have a rich heritage, I am not implying that others do not have a rich heritage, by saying that I am a proud brahmin, I do not imply or others have nothing to feel proud about.

Sanatana -varnashrama-dharma way of life permits thousands of conflicting, even mutually exclusive ideas, practices and beliefs to co exist. There has never been an inter community attacks between our communities similar to what happened between shia-sunni-wahabis, or catholic-protestants.

QUOTE=Raji Ram;229155]Dear Renu,

See... you LOL when someone says 'I am proud to be a brahmin!'

That is why I wrote, 'Brahmins are NOT supposed to be proud of their heritage!'[/QUOTE]

 

[Raji Ram]

To be frank, Renu, the prof might have told about the boys who are average in studies!