Wedding between Tamil Brahmin and Seer Karuneegar

[Vaagmi]

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...........We live in USA, have never lived in TN so our outlook is lot more liberal than someone who never left the interior villages of TN.

Dear prasadji,

1. You live in USA.
2. You have never lived in Tamilnadu.
3. So, you claim, your outlook is lot more liberal than someone who never left the interior villages of TN.

Dont you think that the assertion in 3 above is based on dubious credentials in 1 and 2?

A frog in a well thought the world can be only as large as the well itself. It can not be different for a frog in a well in US as well. Am I wrong? Correct me please.

 

[Vaagmi]

Your definition of caste from what I could see is birth based only. Perhaps my poor understanding but I have met a large number of birth based Brahmins whose character is very poor. In real world one does run into making this choice when character is not present in the person of your caste.

tksji,

All I am saying is this. Caste is designed to be birth based like racial features like slit eyes, white skin etc are and rajo guna and thamo guna are. You have perhaps met a large number of birth based brahmins whose character is very poor. But you have not met all the or majority of the birth based brahmins to come to any meaningful conclusion. Your sample size is woefully inadequate. I have come across a large number of brahmins with sterling character and so I stand at the opposite pole from you. So you can at best be only judgmental about character. I do not think your case is that character is not present in all the persons of my caste or only in the persons of my caste. You have insufficient data to come to a conclusion. But the rustic wisdom in the villages of Tamilnadu have a different opinion about this. They think brahmins are people with character, they are good and that they are non-violent, that they are super intelligent, that they are compassionate etc., I will give just two examples: 1. my school classmate Thangapandi's mother used to advise him in all seriousness. "Eley, pareechchaiyila kaappi adikkanumnakkooda iyeru voottu pilla pakkaththula ukkanthu kaappi adiley" 2. The popular filmi song "Vaadaa machchi vayasukku vanthutta, meesa mulachchu munnukku vanthutta..........." has a line which says effectively " iyer voottu ponnu meenu vaanga vanthaa kaathal thirumanamnu purinjukko".

There are good and bad in all castes. But the bad elements are less in brahmin community and it is because of the environment they grow up in which again depends basically on genes. May be, it is an unfortunate coincidence that you have met only bad elements from the brahmin community in your life time-except perhaps yourself (whenever you stood before the mirror).LOL. In this forum too you find ample evidence to this. Someone had to send the centrespread nude pictures from Dabonaire magazine to a brahmin boy in order to homogenise the crowd in the class. LOL.

For a certain crowd in Tamilnadu, a tuft indicates orthodoxy or being out of sync with reality and the march of time. A pattai and kottai (vibhuti and rudraksham) or a naamam and panchakachcham indicates an unscientific temper and superstitious stupidity. And the newly educated class is ever ready to drown any protest, or voice of sanity in a chorus of "yes yes". And the poor intimidated brahmins (like our fully certified oldies here) being unable to withstand the onslaught starts with sacrificing the pattai and then kottai:the poonal, naamam and then the panchakachcham. The final blow is dealt when his daughter walks up to him and lectures about the blood being of the same color and composition in all men. And add to this the crowd of politicians who can convert anything into a social issue of exploitation to make a few millions for the next seven generation of the family. We have the ideal mixture of explosives for self destruction of a society.

I do not know where you stand in this scenario.

 

[sravna]

I endorse Shri Vaagmi's views that there are fewer bad elements among brahmins because of their upbringing and genes though I do not want to feel any superiority because of that. I think I am just stating the facts. But if success is measured in terms of wealth or power many other communities have had considerable success than brahmins.

I strongly feel that the values that form the core of beliefs of the brahmin community need to be kept intact. I would very much like to see many others move towards and adopt a compassionate and empathetic attitude and try to be not focused on one's own welfare only. Though one may say it is necessary to move with the times, the values that represent a time needs to be reassessed if they fail to provide peace and harmony in the world and it is when the current times has to learn universal and timeless values and adapt itself.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Renuka,

In the present scenario, brahminism exists only in letter and not in spirit. That renders brahminism synonymous with hypocrisy. Whatever brahminizing means, it remains only in the external and perhaps hence Maash's lover was flexible to yield to brahmin style of wedding.

This requires first a definition of brahminism. Please define it.

Hardly any brahmin born in the 80s and hence perform any brahmin ritual. Many do not know sandhyavandhanam let alone perform it.

In your limited circle of christians and other converts like you, no wonder you find only what you wanted to find. There are many(born in the 80s ad later) who quietly do their sandhya at home and then come to office to say a hi to you. They are completely at ease whether it is in the world of sthothrams, prabhanthams and upanishadic wisdom or the world of molecules and atoms, or the technology of building a penning gauge to measure vacuum, or the chaos theory or the tough epistemology of Immanuel Kant. The problem is that you might have never cared to get closer to any of them to speak about such matters that requires a level of intellectual maturity. I am sure you know the story of three blind men trying to describe an elephant. You are doing exactly that.

In the days to come brahminism, howsoever it is interpreted, is going to become inevitably extinct. There is no point desperately holding on to so-called-brahmin-traditions, customs etc. It is an exercise in futility. Brahmins are digging the grave for brahminism themselves by their lifestyles, blind imitation of the west etc. Most brahmin girls walk around only in western outfits. Few sport traditional costumes only during special occasions like marriage etc.

Thanks for the liberal advice. The world tried its best to do that to another illustrious community called Jews and we know what happened. Fond hopes will remain just that.

In whatsoever way brahmin women distinguished themselves in the past, internally, externally, superficially etc, they have ceased from. Realizing that they would be isolated otherwise, brahmin women have mingled with others adopted a lifestyle which is becoming universal. In a way that is a wise move. The brahmin women are in a transition stage its completion is around the corner. They have broken almost all barriers, every yoke and bondage that have held them in captivity. We are no longer brahmin women, but WOMEN. We are no longer confined to the kitchen.

All positive things you have said about brahmin women are true and that makes me proud. But the going over board could have been avoided by you. What you have said has happened not only to brahmin women but also to all women. That is the magic of the alchemist called time. Smart and intelligent women understand the pathways of time and take things with the right attitude. Those who are endowed with just a peanut brain go overboard and end up in the dustbin. In military there is a doctrine. We have been taught to give atmost importance to discipline and authority-not because it is some holy principle but because it is the first lesson in survival. In the front where bullets fly, if you are ordered to hold fire, you just do that. If you violate you may get the entire task force killed. A woman's place in the family is like a soldier's place in the taskforce. Either move as a family under a command or get wiped out. Pea brains won't understand this.

We are career women. But for our anatomy and physical functionings which puts some constraints on us, we are in no way inferior to men in general and to brahmin men in particular.

And what a way to assert this universal truth!!

I trust Maash would realize this and arrive at a wise decision.

She has already done that. She is looking for only support for her decision as she is unsure about where she is going to land.

 

[auh]

Does it include everyone who claims he is a brahmin in this forum?

Perhaps. And then, it may include some outside also.

Dear Maash,

I am an Iyengar. My husband is a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. I wear madissar whenever I wish because I like it and my husband loves to see me in madissar.

Presuming you have not converted to your husband's belief, you must be still worshipping Sriman Narayana as the supreme Godhead?

We are married since many years and we are the happiest couple in the world

.You have not seen how happy ALL the other couples in this world are. So, please refrain from using the superlative.

 

[renuka]

Your definition of caste from what I could see is birth based only. Perhaps my poor understanding but I have met a large number of birth based Brahmins whose character is very poor. In real world one does run into making this choice when character is not present in the person of your caste.

Dear TKS ji,

I feel you have a problem accepting the fact that caste is birth based.

It has been birth based ever since and it will be birth based till one decides to go beyond caste.

As a Non Brahmin I have totally no problems accepting that caste is birth based.

Most Non Brahmins get angry with the caste being a birth base cos you see each human wants some amount of "superiority" in their life.
People mistake being Brahmin as a feeling of Superiority and that is where all the problem starts!

Many want this caste system to be an open system where anyone can be a Brahmin but yet these same people wont like the idea of anyone else becoming their caste..do you really think a Vaisya or a Kshatriya would like the idea of someone becoming their caste and say its not birth based?

I can safely bet no!

You see let anything be birth based and it should not matter to those who do not subscribe to it.

I have no problems if caste is birth based cos I do not aspire to be in any of the Varnas becos for practical reasons its outdated in my opinion.


The word Guna Brahmin is just some nonsense if you ask me...its just to justify that if someone else besides a Brahmin has good qualities..it is becos by either hook or crook he acquired some Brahmin mindset.

The famous Satyakama son of Jabala is the best example..it only reinforced the fact that only a Brahmin could speak the truth...failing to address the issue that the father of Sathyakama did not even marry his mother and she didnt even know his name..so it was just an exploitation of the one night stand kind...since she was helpless and worked as a maid in some house.

So tell me would a true Brahmin do such stuff..to have a one night stand of this kind?

But still story makes it sound that only Brahmins speak the truth.

The human mind usually has to "personalize" another to feel comfortable..a person who truly respects himself and others would not give anyone caste based tags and accept the diversity of mankind and Gunas belong to none for its verily exists in Nature.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Maash,...........
Arrange for a meeting with your male friend in some informal place..try to project your man as a person who has a spine and will look after you well.

And accept your Dad's advise if he asks you to marry an Iyer boy with a stronger spine because he will look after you better. Stronger the spine better is the security. LOL.

You see if I had a daughter of a marriageable age and she brings home a man she wants to marry..the 1st thing I would think is "Is this person brave enough to marry my daughter despite the odds"

Yes. Brave enough not to get nightmares every night living with her. The odds, if they are so heavy, no questions need be asked. Just arrange for the marriage next moment and send the girl away. LOL.

For me I would like a person to maintain his individuality and not metamorphosize and become a community he is not.

Only a worm can metamorphose to become a beautiful butterfly, not a cockroach.. Yes worm is not butterfly but it becomes one and it is beautiful.

Making a Non Brahmin embrace Brahmanism in my opinion sorts of make the diversity of society disappear. A person can be good at heart with great human qualities without getting a new tag of any Ism In the long run..your man would feel appreciated and respected if he is allowed to be himself.

Agrees with every word said here.

At the beginning when a guy is in love..they would even jump off a cliff for the girl they love..that is the effect of testosterone....so for a person deciding to wear a Yagnopavit and embrace some form of Brahaminism would not seem like a great deal. Some even try to become vegetarians to please their Brahmin girlfriends only to run to some Non Veg shop after a few years of marriage.So what is important in a relationship is breathing space.

pearls of wisdom.

If you feel that your man does not mind getting married the Brahmin way etc..ask him sincerely if he is doing that becos he just sees it as a marriage ritual or he is doing that to please you. If he says he is doing that to please you..than think again..Indian males are known to regret their decisions much latter in life..dont let them have the chance to say 'I gave up my tradition for you..I gave up my culture for you" and use this as a ransom in years to come.

This is exactly what is said by others who asks for exercising caution. Only the role is reversed there-the role of boy and girl.

What I cant understand in most marriages of TB girls and Non Brahmin guys is the TB girls try very hard to Brahmanize the NB guy..if TB girls miss Brahmanism so much..why dont you girls just marry a good Brahmin boy your parents find? There would be less stress..no need to change anyone.

OMG. Now renukaji is on my side. LOL.

 

[Vaagmi]

As far as I know he was not known to spend much money even though he came from a well to do home..I dont think he would have spent money on such magazines.

We girls used to buy to check out the centre folds..actually nothing really great or to shout about...most of the centre folds were fat!LOL

But the magazines also had good recipes and other information especially politics.

Leaving Ambi for the present.

Dabonair and its centrespreads are familiar to me. In my circle of friends we used to enjoy watching those babes. Perhaps we saw everything but the fat there. We were not Doctors. We were all students studying science and less exotic things. So we could not see the fat and bones there. Only the sculpted figure. LOL.

 

[Raji Ram]

I have a genuine doubt!

Is Miss Maash taking all of us for a ride??

 

[renuka]

OMG. Now renukaji is on my side. LOL.

LOL! No! I am not on anyone side.

You see I am just being logical here..I have noted this in TB girls that they tend to Brahminize the NB guy they intend to marry..getting worried if he can wear Yagnopavit and then when they have kids they want Upanayanam even though the kids are born from Non Brahmin fathers....when kids are of marriageable age. they want kids to marry only TBs..what confusion yaar? If a TB girls still wants all these..she should marry a TB.


When I got married(arranged marriage) the elders were wondering which style should the marriage go..since my FIL is a half Malayalee Half Chinese and my MIL part Tamil part Srilankan and knowing my side also being a mixed caste.

So my FIL decided thats since Tamil blood was the only common factor on both sides..so I had a Tamil Wedding.

Simple and easy.


Those who are contemplating lovvu intercaste marriage should try to adapt for a neutral approach that would keep everyone happy.

Both husband and wife should drop differences...its like Sanyas..drop the old image and don a new one..if one has no guts..then dont take the step.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

Now a days even some brahmins with no mix opt for 'Arya samaj' type wedding.

The rituals take about an hour with important Sanskrit mathras with meaning in English so that guys know what they are doing!

One of Ram's nieces had such a wedding since the groom did not want to sit in front of a big fire!

P.S: The groom is ABCD brahmin !!

 

[renuka]

Leaving Ambi for the present.

We were not Doctors. We were all students studying science and less exotic things. So we could not see the fat and bones there. Only the sculpted figure. LOL.

May be we medics have a Bhajo Govindam mindset and saw only fat and bones!

Verse 3: ~~~~~~​

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NAAREE STHANABHARA NABHEEDESAM​

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DHRISHTWA MAA GAA MOHAVESAM​

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YETAN MAAMSAVASAADI VIKAARAM​

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MANASI VICHINTHAYA VAARAM VAARAM​

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​

Enticed by the physical glamour of a woman, do not lose your senses; the body is nothing but a conglomeration of flesh, do not forget this any time.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Renuka,

Why are you feeling surprised to find most of the brahmin girls wanting to fall in love with NB guy and marry him and then try had to find ways and means to perform brahminical rituals on her NB husband? Wishing to brahmanize their kids as well & expecting brahmin DIL/SIL.

What to do? You know very well and enlightened many at many times that LOVE just happens and that can happen with any one. Isn't it?

These girls have fallen in LOVVU with NB's naturally (may be a deiveegam lovvu) and still yearn to follow Brahmincal customs in their family, being brought up herself and her siblings in a certain way.

As such, you can very well sympathize with these girls. Need not to question them - "why should they go for NB husband when desperately wanting Brahmincal customs?"

 

[prasad1]

Dear prasadji,

1. You live in USA.
2. You have never lived in Tamilnadu.
3. So, you claim, your outlook is lot more liberal than someone who never left the interior villages of TN.

Dont you think that the assertion in 3 above is based on dubious credentials in 1 and 2?

A frog in a well thought the world can be only as large as the well itself. It can not be different for a frog in a well in US as well. Am I wrong? Correct me please.

Sir,
My comment are not directed at anyone in particular, unless I specifically address it to them. I have no problem if some one wants to take the mantle and put on them self. If the shoe fits, wear it, it is up to the individual.
You have the knack of jumping to wrong conclusions. I was not going to tell you what you can do with yourself, that is up to you.
A person who has lived all over India, north, south, east and West, has lived in Europe, and now lives in USA has seen the world. As compared to the worm that never left the mud hole in some remote corner of the world, has definitely much more broader out look.
The liberal outlook is obvious from my post as opposed to strict born-caste mentality expressed by someone else.
Liberal in the present world of conservatism is a BAD word. To a rigid fundamentalist, anyone not following their principle, guru, religion is probably liberal.
No offense meant to you in person.

 

[sarang]

Some stay put in one place and gain all the wisdom. Some self proclaimed jeevan muktas travel all over the world, claim to hail from temple building families, claim to be the front running secular-humanist, but do root cutting sitting on a distant withering branch. Not specifically meant for anybody. May fit if the shoe is right.

 

[krish44]

May be we medics have a Bhajo Govindam mindset and saw only fat and bones!

Verse 3: ~~~~~~​

NAAREE STHANABHARA NABHEEDESAM​

DHRISHTWA MAA GAA MOHAVESAM​

YETAN MAAMSAVASAADI VIKAARAM​

MANASI VICHINTHAYA VAARAM VAARAM​

Enticed by the physical glamour of a woman, do not lose your senses; the body is nothing but a conglomeration of flesh, do not forget this any time.

what a romantic post wah wah . special award to Rji for pointing out the above .lol

 

[krish44]

Dear prasadji,

1. You live in USA.
2. You have never lived in Tamilnadu.
3. So, you claim, your outlook is lot more liberal than someone who never left the interior villages of TN.

Dont you think that the assertion in 3 above is based on dubious credentials in 1 and 2?

A frog in a well thought the world can be only as large as the well itself. It can not be different for a frog in a well in US as well. Am I wrong? Correct me please.

shall we have a convention for frogs alone-delhi frog,lol

 

[krish44]

Some stay put in one place and gain all the wisdom. Some self proclaimed jeevan muktas travel all over the world, claim to hail from temple building families, claim to be the front running secular-humanist, but do root cutting sitting on a distant withering branch. Not specifically meant for anybody. May fit if the shoe is right.

my friend used to tell a story

street performers enact ramayana scenes in make shift stage

there is a specific scene where in hanuman would climb down a rope carrying sanjeev parvat to revive lakshmana who is unconscious

one of the performers foes cut off the thread of Hanuman while he was coming down with parvat

hanuman fell down with a thud on the stage

when lord rama asks him whether he has brought the sanjeevani

an irate hanuman says 'forget sanjeevani ,tell me who cut the thread'.lol

it is tempting for some to cut the withering branch of tree on which a poor liberal is sitting in US

not meant specifically for anyone in particular .lol

 

[vs_ramki1950]

will give permission to you daughter? and encourage

 

[krish44]

Dear Renuka,

Why are you feeling surprised to find most of the brahmin girls wanting to fall in love with NB guy and marry him and then try had to find ways and means to perform brahminical rituals on her NB husband? Wishing to brahmanize their kids as well & expecting brahmin DIL/SIL.

What to do? You know very well and enlightened many at many times that LOVE just happens and that can happen with any one. Isn't it?

These girls have fallen in LOVVU with NB's naturally (may be a deiveegam lovvu) and still yearn to follow Brahmincal customs in their family, being brought up herself and her siblings in a certain way.

As such, you can very well sympathize with these girls. Need not to question them - "why should they go for NB husband when desperately wanting Brahmincal customs?"

Raviji
It is so sad
Most brahmin girls loving NBs would like to transform them into someone who can adopt brahmin customs and practices.

They do not accept the man as he is

they also aspire for a brahmin lifestyle,veg food, going to divyadesam temples , performing all pujas,rituals and celebrate festivals which many times relevant only to brahmins

they also try to bring up their children as per brahmin culture and look for brahmin DIL/SIL

unfortunately other brahmins shun them even if one parent is a NB

if you are a NB in a brahmin household, you experience untouchability in its extreme form

my suggestion to NBs . Do not go near a brahmin . it is closer to hell than you think

 

[krish44]

will give permission to you daughter? and encourage

Ramki ji
I have NBs ,other religions also in my extended family

my children have married in brahmin sects not matching mine with my full approval

we need to relate as human beings and not think of narrow caste divisions

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Why are you feeling surprised to find most of the brahmin girls wanting to fall in love with NB guy and marry him and then try had to find ways and means to perform brahminical rituals on her NB husband? Wishing to brahmanize their kids as well & expecting brahmin DIL/SIL.

What to do? You know very well and enlightened many at many times that LOVE just happens and that can happen with any one. Isn't it?

These girls have fallen in LOVVU with NB's naturally (may be a deiveegam lovvu) and still yearn to follow Brahmincal customs in their family, being brought up herself and her siblings in a certain way.

As such, you can very well sympathize with these girls. Need not to question them - "why should they go for NB husband when desperately wanting Brahmincal customs?"

Dear Ravi,

Falling in LOVVU means accepting a person as he or she is..and NOT forcing them to change in any manner.

It wont be fair to either party.

Why cant a TB girl accept a NB man as he is..or marry a TB guy as he is?

If I were a scientist I would be rich by cloning a new male..the male with a TB mind and the NB body...that species will be a big hit..I think that is what a TB girl really wants!LOL

 

[krish44]

Dear Ravi,

Falling in LOVVU means accepting a person as he or she is..and NOT forcing them to change in any manner.

It wont be fair to either party.

Why cant a TB girl accept a NB man as he is..or marry a TB guy as he is?

If I were a scientist I would be rich by cloning a new male..the male with a TB mind and the NB body...that species will be a big hit..I think that is what a TB girl really wants!LOL

My wifes colleague a kayasth married to TB is proud of TB brains of her children and complains of poor performance of TB husband in bed.

you have to listen to her to hear her stories of coping with TB husband who would lovingly make coffee for her only if his mother is not around.

behave like a sturdy tough superior male when mother is around and crawl when he is alone with her

all stories told by her in good humour

 

[Vaagmi]

Sir,
My comment are not directed at anyone in particular, unless I specifically address it to them. I have no problem if some one wants to take the mantle and put on them self. If the shoe fits, wear it, it is up to the individual.
You have the knack of jumping to wrong conclusions. I was not going to tell you what you can do with yourself, that is up to you.
A person who has lived all over India, north, south, east and West, has lived in Europe, and now lives in USA has seen the world. As compared to the worm that never left the mud hole in some remote corner of the world, has definitely much more broader out look.
The liberal outlook is obvious from my post as opposed to strict born-caste mentality expressed by someone else.
Liberal in the present world of conservatism is a BAD word. To a rigid fundamentalist, anyone not following their principle, guru, religion is probably liberal.
No offense meant to you in person.

I take it that the post is addressed to me specifically because it starts with Sir. So I reply:

1. I only hope and wish that you know first what you want to do with yourself. You appear to be confused. You claim to have lived in east, west, north south and centre of India. Where is Tamilnadu in this geographical masterpiece? Inside the Bay of Bengal?

2. I never knew that the babysitters who go to US comeback with a broader mind to India.

3. You do not know anything about the worm. Your broad mind is unable to accommodate the fact that the worm might have travelled more than you or that it might have studied in one of the top institutions in your mind-broadening US. Any way the worm says it is in a better place a mud hole in the punya bhoomi that is India and not in the gutter of US.

4. Liberal means different things to different people. For a worm settled in US telling, the daughter before she goes on one of those many dates, not to forget her contraceptive tablets is being very broad minded whereas for the worm in the mud hole in India it is unthinkable. The unlocked uterus syndrome? LOL.

5. I am offended. If you are offended, you asked for it.

 

[sarang]

No need for an outsider to cut the thread. Swollen head weight will do it!

my friend used to tell a story

street performers enact ramayana scenes in make shift stage

there is a specific scene where in hanuman would climb down a rope carrying sanjeev parvat to revive lakshmana who is unconscious

one of the performers foes cut off the thread of Hanuman while he was coming down with parvat

hanuman fell down with a thud on the stage

when lord rama asks him whether he has brought the sanjeevani

an irate hanuman says 'forget sanjeevani ,tell me who cut the thread'.lol

it is tempting for some to cut the withering branch of tree on which a poor liberal is sitting in US

not meant specifically for anyone in particular .lol