dears pann, re your post #981, visa re your post 988,
thank you so much for your kind reply. As always, not only have you detailed your explanation, but see through the consequences a few steps beyond me.
pann, first of all, as you may know, I live in Canada, and chances are my children will marry other than tambram. This is a situation that all of us tambrams have found to be true here. The first set of tambram marriages of the offsprings took place in the 1980s and often at the urgings of parents, to fellow tambrams, and could be termed ‘arranged love marriages’. Much in line with the home team view that only marriages to tambrams will be tolerated, and if these do not want a bride or groom from india, find a local one from the community. Many kids complied.
I am sad to say there was a 100% failure rate, though the sample number is small (less than 10). The tambram in the 90s, 2000s, quickly learned their lesson and very soon gave them the freedom (or better way to see it, acknowledged the freedom) to chose mates. I should say that most children have chosen wisely and from what I know many are parents already to bonnie babies.
To date I only know of one failure, marriage to gujarati boy from the u.s. and in this case the tambram parents hurried the marriage, as they feared for their daughter’s ‘reputation’. The parents nowadays agree to their mistake in rushing this marriage, as they viewed the relationship from their own upbringing viewpoint.
Children, when given wide leeway, do not simply rush into marriage. There is an extended courting session, and it is during this period, that the good & the bad between both of them come out. One can get attracted to someone, but to be consistently pleasant is not all that realistic. One soon comes to know the character flaws, the family and above all, compatibility for permanent setup.
If things go well ie they can accept each other’s flaws and shortcomings, the bond gets only stronger, and they are willing to plunge into matrimony. Again here, it is the girl who likes to take the initiative, as most men are happy to just float along, and avoid commitment. Is there sex in this stage? Probably. But it is none of anyone’s concerns, I believe.
Maybe in india, we do not give the children this time leeway? If one sees and gets attracted to one of opposite sex, it is marriage? I am not so sure for I give the youth more credit. Unless ofcourse there are external factors at play. Which is why parental guidance and educating the children towards a wise selection process is so important.
In the light of increasing, and seemingly unstoppable ic marriages, I think it is the parents that need education now. They need to learn to talk to their children and teach them how to judge people, character and above all the key ingredients for a marriage (jaadhaga porutham is not, but within the same caste is ok).
you notice that I say marriage within own caste is ok for parents to set as one of the guidelines, but these are guidelines. The parents should remember that, as the guidelines may be breached and parents have to deal with the situation without committing any collateral damage. I am not in favour of add on tensions, for the sake of principle. Overall, I consider myself a realist.
I still remember my very liberal girl cousin sighing relief, when her daughter brought her boyfriend first home, in Chennai, 2 years ago, and he turned to be a tamil iyer (they got married a while ago). when I queried her, she admitted that anyone would be ok, but a tambram son in law was icing on the cake. (this guy is good looking AND rich & under the thumb of his wife now).
Pann, I was only taking dalits as an example. Fortunately I live in Canada, where dalit is a misnomer, as we are all considered Asians. I also agree it is easier to ignore castes and practice of casteism in the west, as the communities are small enough that they do not morph into rigidity and exclusivity.
Then are dalits who since independence, for more than two generations, risen up and if you did not enquire deeper, would think them of as NBs and that’s it. I realize that the trouble with generalizations is that we imagine the worst of scenarios, and scenarios to fit in with our prejudice (or ignorance).
Pann, it is idealism and our fancy for it, that makes us better human beings. Please do not discard your ideals, for there was a reason why you embraced those in the first place. The society definitely needs more idealists.
Admittedly we will never be perfect, and to have limitations is only human. but I think when these limitations, sharply curtail the happiness of our children, it may be wise to reflect and re examine our values. Our values must be centred around our children, and not vice versa.
Even in india, in an urban environment, in a nuclear family, how often is there interaction with relatives? Probably weddings, and funerals and child birth ceremonies. With small families, I suspect, these are not so numerous as what our previous generation experienced. One simply does not have the time, I think, to drop in on someone for chitchats.
One may lament the loss of such bondings, but I do not envison any possibility of turning back the clock, and all of us retiring to the leisurely ways (for the men only of agraharams. These were not the utopia that they are purported now to be, but just another place with much banality, vambu, notoriety, nosiness and gossip, enough for folks like me to wish vanavaasam.
Relatives or friends who mock or gossip about other’s ic marriages, would do well remember, that when one finger is pointed at others, three are pointed back. I have seen only too many cases of parents changing their views overnight when such things happen to them. it is better to be wise initially, that wisdom thrust on them.
This is what I mean that times, they are a changing, and while we may shed some aspects of our cultures, willingly or otherwise, there are opportunities to gain for our community. I honestly feel that ic marriages is one way to increase (or atleast to stabilize) our number. We are probably the first tamil hindu group to feel the effects of mass scale urbanization and migration. And increasingly & seemingly unstoppable intermarriages.
I have seen murthys & viswanathans in name only – their grandfather or fathers married other castes or groups, and the children have adopted the cultures of the mother. Would it not be better if these kids appreciated tamil, sambhar idlis and thirukural or vedas?
Cultures such as jews, muslims have long recognized that the cultures and values pass primarily through the mothers. Hence their insistence on coversions is much more vehement when their daughters wish to marry outside. To me, it seems rather myopic that we tambram throw out our daughter as ‘gift’ to nourish another community than our own.
A tambram girl with strong support at home, will be more inclined to ensure that culture is imparted and values passed on. Otherwise, she herself is perforce to abandon her roots and seek refuge in her husband’s home. To me, the former is definitely a 1000 times better alternative. N’est pas?
Visa, re Gandhi, I know only very sketchy details of his early life. One such ditty, is that while in London, our man had a jolly good time with wine, women and song. Apparently he had a change of heart later in life, but had he not, that would have been ok too by me. I have problems when people go to extent of torment and guilt over the previous activities. To me, it shows a serious imbalance of values and one’s own self worth. Rooting for redeemed sinners are not my cup of tea.
The same goes for gandhi’s attitude to sex. If I remember right, he was with his wife kasturi when one of his parents died. He felt that he should have been tending the parent and hence his lifelong experiments with sexual feelings.
Visa, all these are characterestics of Gandhi, and in no way diminishes his role as the father of the nation. i feel that one should not deify a human as perfection, but balance his good vs others, and in gandhi’s case, there is not even an iota of doubt as to his stature among leaders of the world – in front of the line. And forever.
Incidentally, gandhi’s son devadas married lakshmi, daughter of rajaji iyengar. A love marriage blessed by both parents. The wedding was simple and more in the lines of swaya mariadhai, without priests, and presided by Gandhi if I am not mistaken.
To sum up here, our community is going through, what I think is a turmoil with the changes of the attitude of tambram girls towards marriages. I feel that many parents (if not most) are reconciled to this fact, and deal with it in their own individual way. I only wish whatever their resolution was, it was not at the expense of love, affection and care for their daughters. One would find it very painful to let go of one’s children.
There are many who have expressed their anguish here in this forum about ic marriages for our girls, and to these folks like, I have no justifications or even an urge to engage in conversation. All I can say, is that at some time in the future, if you or your friends are faced with similar circumstances, folks like me, nara, happy, rajesh, raghy, krishamurthy (apologies to anyone I left out) will have provided you, here in this thread, with some tools to deal with the situation in a humane and common sensical way.
Thank you.
. But your views are among the prime reasons many rush into a thread to read, including yours faithfully.
