Changing Times: Will Gay Marriage Be Legal in India?

[renuka]

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Renuka,

My point is one should strive to move towards the ideal and not away from it. Thus even if people are not totally selfless it is ok. To achieve that is the purpose of existence. So let us not show them the wrong direction.

Dear Sravna,

I used to think like you before(but not too much like you) but as I grew older I realized that right and wrong is basically in our mind.
I feel its our own journey to discover the path for ourselves.
We can only guide our children to a certain extent.Finally its up to them or anyone to decide whats right and wrong for them.

Woman were denied education before and that seemed right then but its not anymore now.
That way I can say that even Right and Wrong evolve.
So we really cant sharply demarcate right and wrong anymore.
As I once said before..There is no Merit or Sin..Its all experiences.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

I used to think like you before(but not too much like you) but as I grew older I realized that right and wrong is basically in our mind.
I feel its our own journey to discover the path for ourselves.
We can only guide our children to a certain extent.Finally its up to them or anyone to decide whats right and wrong for them.

Woman were denied education before and that seemed right then but its not anymore now.
That way I can say that even Right and Wrong evolve.
So we really cant sharply demarcate right and wrong anymore.
As I once said before..There is no Merit or Sin..Its all experiences.

Dear Renuka,

In a way you are right. Right or wrong is in the mind and it does evolve. Is that not the reason we have different dharma for different types of people? It is almiost impossible to convince a person of one predomiannat guna that the other is the right one. But there is one ulmiate right and wrong. That is what the spiritually developed person sees.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

In a way you are right. Right or wrong is in the mind and it does evolve. Is that not the reason we have different dharma for different types of people? It is almiost impossible to convince a person of one predomiannat guna that the other is the right one. But there is one ulmiate right and wrong. That is what the spiritually developed person sees.

Dear Sravna,

Ekam Sat..Truth Verily is. How can there be the Ultimate Right and Ultimate Wrong.Thats still dwelling in Dualities isnt it?
Spiritually developed people will have Equal Vision.

Vidya-vinaya-sampanne Brahmane gavi hastini
Shuni caiva shvapake cha Panditah sama-darshinah

 

[renuka]

I cant remember fully but this happened once in the Life of Swami Vivekananda.
Once Swami was in the court of a Raja and when Swami knew that a courtesan was going to sing a song he left the room cos it was forbidden to a Sanyasi to listen to the voice of a courtesan.
The courtesan felt a bit hurt when she knew that Swami had left and she sang a song with profound meaning..I cant remember the song but I remember a little where she had sung that all water no matter from which source will eventually flow into Ganga and be purified finally(I think thats to what she sang)

Swami heard the song from outside and was so moved by the words and her manner of singing that he returned and spoke politely to her, thanking her for the lesson she had given him and even addressed her as Mother.

This is how a Truly Spiritual person sees the world.

 

[Brahin]

This notion that somehow people can choose to be gay/lesbian and its a conscious decision of their part to do so is extremely disturbing. As far as I know the three sexual orientations of humans ie heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality is something they are born with. Until we can extablish that clearly, legalising gay marriage is always going to be seen as unecessary and decadent.

Correct me if I am wrong but I've always thought and heard that people don't have any control over their sexual orientation, but of course they can choose not to act on it openly.

As we can see, there is still much prejudice against gay people, so why on earth would anyone choose to be gay? Why would anyone purposely make life all the more difficult for themselves? It doesn't make sense.

Why would legalising gay marriage lead to destruction of society? I don't get it. Is it because we are worried that once legalised, even straight people are going to wake up and say Woohoo! They've legalised it. I am gonna be gay from today! But it doesn't work that way. Straight people cannot be gay. Only bisexuals can be both. But they are born that way.

This is really great and funny.Way to go Amala.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Ekam Sat..Truth Verily is. How can there be the Ultimate Right and Ultimate Wrong.Thats still dwelling in Dualities isnt it?
Spiritually developed people will have Equal Vision.

Vidya-vinaya-sampanne Brahmane gavi hastini
Shuni caiva shvapake cha Panditah sama-darshinah

Dear Renuka,

Truth due to recognition of reality is what I mean by ultimate truth. Anything due to illusion is finally seen as wrong. There is no duality in this. See, it is true that people are pushed into certain wrongs due to birth traits and due to environment. In such cases we may sympathize with the person. But is it right and in the interest of the society to justify that wrong and even promote it? Let's say that someone is born with a certain proneness towards homosexuality. Now there is the environment factor. If society discourages homosexuality to an extent it offsets the natural inclination of that person, he does not become a homosexual. But by justifying it we are letting it happen or even trying to increase that probability.

I consider homosexuality as something which the society needs to discourage because it is born out of baser needs. Just because a person is born with such traits doesn't make homosexuality any nobler.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Truth due to recognition of reality is what I mean by ultimate truth. Anything due to illusion is finally seen as wrong. There is no duality in this. See, it is true that people are pushed into certain wrongs due to birth traits and due to environment. In such cases we may sympathize with the person. But is it right and in the interest of the society to justify that wrong and even promote it? Let's say that someone is born with a certain proneness towards homosexuality. Now there is the environment factor. If society discourages homosexuality to an extent it offsets the natural inclination of that person, he does not become a homosexual. But by justifying it we are letting it happen or even trying to increase that probability.

I consider homosexuality as something which the society needs to discourage because it is born out of baser needs. Just because a person is born with such traits doesn't make homosexuality any nobler.

Dear Sravna,

According to the scriptures we humans are supposed to use sex for procreation and not for recreation.
How many householders follow this?
Hardly any.I so far have read that the parents of Swami Yogananda used to practise this ideal and only used sex for procreation but the rest of us are not doing so.
Most of us are still having sex for pleasure in marriage.
So we are not even following our laid down scriptures so I dare not say that Homosexuality is not within the accepted norm.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

According to the scriptures we humans are supposed to use sex for procreation and not for recreation.
How many householders follow this?
Hardly any.I so far have read that the parents of Swami Yogananda used to practise this ideal and only used sex for procreation but the rest of us are not doing so.
Most of us are still having sex for pleasure in marriage.
So we are not even following our laid down scriptures so I dare not say that Homosexuality is not within the accepted norm.

What is the point in making something acceptable when the only thing it can do is spreading the mental corruption? What makes homosexuality really undesirable is being a sexual desire and sexual desire being the strongest among physical desires, it may help all such undesirable things take strong roots. This is because to satisfy your strongest desire you will not be averse to doing other anti-social and undesirable things. However, normal sex due to the need for procreation and more importantly due to the coming together of the complements of man and woman assumes importance.

 

[renuka]

What is the point in making something acceptable when the only thing it can do is spreading the mental corruption? What makes homosexuality really undesirable is being a sexual desire and sexual desire being the strongest among physical desires, it may help all such undesirable things take strong roots. This is because to satisfy your strongest desire you will not be averse to doing other anti-social and undesirable things. However, normal sex due to the need for procreation and more importantly due to the coming together of the complements of man and woman assumes importance.

Dear Sravna,

How does homosexuality cause mental corruption? Its only undesirable to those who are straight.Gays dont see it that way.Its comes natural to them like how fish take to water.
Just like how some will find a Non Veg dish undesirable and some will find it desirable.

 

[C RAVI]

hi amala
nice remarks....great point too...but may be neccessity of modern times.....some issues like property /insurance other benefits

denied for gay/lesbian people in front of court/law.....once legalised....its law....even divorcees are getting benefits....many just

walk away from marriage/family responsibilties.....divorce is legalised....why cant gay marriages?......anyway its happening every

where...but not openly.....not legally approved....many unanswered questions about gay/lesbian in army/defence forces....

still many countries openly against gay marriages in defence forces......i had gone through some personal experiences...but i dont want

to say openly in a public forum.....its really a burning issue....but i agree that in a long term basis.....the society/community will be

corrupted.....


regards
tbs

Sri tbs,

You are right...

Many experiences that we learn from our surroundings can not be openly expressed in a public forum.

This is Muththina Kali Yuga. Legalization is the base of living and anything can be legalized to support any one's living. There is nothing to be surprised and nothing can be prevented from happening.

We need not to be shocked if in coming days, scientific research supports some sets of humans with genetic traits of inclination towards Animals. That they are born to have a different sexual orientation that drives them towards seeking sexual fulfillment only from Animals. Historically, its found too, humans having sex with horse and cow.

Not only in history. In today's era too, I have come across stories where teenage girls and boys have indulged in sex with animals.


When such a group comes out openly declaring their sexual orientation, there may be some kind of legalization requirements.


IMO, after a few generations all humans gonna be animals and probably that would be the time when nature would swipe them all as garbage and a new survival would come into existence.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

How does homosexuality cause mental corruption? Its only undesirable to those who are straight.Gays dont see it that way.Its comes natural to them like how fish take to water.
Just like how some will find a Non Veg dish undesirable and some will find it desirable.

OK, I will give an example. Consider those born with criminal tendencies. For them committing crime is natural. So can we let them commit crimes just because it is natural for them to do so? So the only thing you need to be convinced about is homosexuality has its roots only in sex. If you are convinced about it wouldn't you agree that being an evolved being we should not let our actions be dictated just by base instincts like animals are? The answer that, just because most of the humans are like that, we need to allow it, is not the right one too. Then when are we going to become really civilized?

 

[C RAVI]

OK, I will give an example. Consider those born with criminal tendencies. For them committing crime is natural. So can we let them commit crimes just because it is natural for them to do so? So the only thing you need to be convinced about is homosexuality has its roots only in sex. If you are convinced about it wouldn't you agree that being an evolved being we should not let our actions be dictated just by base instincts like animals are? The answer that, just because most of the humans are like that, we need to allow it, is not the right one too. Then when are we going to become really civilized?

Sri Sravna,

Excuse me to butt in..Just want to share with you.

The example that you have quoted above is the most simplistic/basic understandings of civilization. I don't have a single clue as how come, many could not understand, for which one need not to be much educated or spiritually inclined.

 

[amala]

OK, I will give an example. Consider those born with criminal tendencies. For them committing crime is natural. So can we let them commit crimes just because it is natural for them to do so? So the only thing you need to be convinced about is homosexuality has its roots only in sex. If you are convinced about it wouldn't you agree that being an evolved being we should not let our actions be dictated just by base instincts like animals are? The answer that, just because most of the humans are like that, we need to allow it, is not the right one too. Then when are we going to become really civilized?

Dear SravnaJi,

Sorry to interrupt your post to Renu. That is the thing. I am not convinced that homosexuality has its roots only in sex. That was what I was hoping to establish earlier. Is it as simple as people with those tendencies just choose?

I would have thought a homosexual relationship is exactly like a hetero one with love, sharing, caring and whatever else that makes heteros more noble, except the progeny bit.

About the civilised bit, it is really subjective no? Many societies would view 'becoming really civilised' when we treat everyone as equals, with the same rights and no discrimination.

 

[renuka]

OK, I will give an example. Consider those born with criminal tendencies. For them committing crime is natural. So can we let them commit crimes just because it is natural for them to do so? So the only thing you need to be convinced about is homosexuality has its roots only in sex. If you are convinced about it wouldn't you agree that being an evolved being we should not let our actions be dictated just by base instincts like animals are? The answer that, just because most of the humans are like that, we need to allow it, is not the right one too. Then when are we going to become really civilized?

Dear Sravna,

Homosexuality cannot be compared with a criminal tendency.A criminal is a threat to society but a Homosexual is not.
If a homosexual forces sex on someone only then its a crime.
If both are consenting partners above the age of consent that I dont think its wrong.
I feel that way as evolved human beings none of us also should be engaged in sex with our spouses for pleasure cos thats still baser instincts.

 

[sravna]

Sri Sravna,

Excuse me to butt in..Just want to share with you.

The example that you have quoted above is the most simplistic/basic understandings of civilization. I don't have a single clue as how come, many could not understand, for which one need not to be much educated or spiritually inclined.

Dear Ravi,

The reason many cannot or may be do not want to understand is because of the tremendous success of Science and Technology in certain areas that they have begun to think they can do away with religion and God. There is nothing to hold them on to principles which religion has been doing so far.

 

[renuka]

Dear Ravi,

The reason many cannot or may be do not want to understand is because of the tremendous success of Science and Technology in certain areas that they have begun to think they can do away with religion and God. There is nothing to hold them on to principles which religion has been doing so far.

Dear Sravna,

You are mistaken here.I believe in God and religion and I feel as a Theist I choose to see God in everyone and be tolerant to the differences we see.
I know very well each one of us are here to work out our karma and finding fault with others who are different from us is a strict NO NO.
I dont want to be judgemental of anyone as all of us still have some flaws in us and I dare not cast a stone on anyone else when we are no saints ourselves.

You know according to religion Spiritual Pride is the worst pride and as I have always said before even Sattva is still not Dvandaatheetam and Triguna Raheetam.

We can all start being better humans by having compassion for those who are different.They didnt choose to be that way.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi,

The reason many cannot or may be do not want to understand is because of the tremendous success of Science and Technology in certain areas that they have begun to think they can do away with religion and God. There is nothing to hold them on to principles which religion has been doing so far.

I agree with your points.

I would like to add as per my opinion, that..

Many believe that, in this world, one will be honored and found fair minded only if one supports the others claim of any sort.

Many believe that if they don't support the things, that's indirectly harmful for the society in long run, than one will be considered bias, old fashioned, impractical, judgmental and may be cruel.

So, many believe that "Enakku Enna Pochchu"? I am living my life the way I want and the way the society believes in from long time. As such, I am not facing any problems/been dishonored. Thus, it's prudential to go with the flow of the changes, support all kinds of unnatural livelihood, and be recognized by all. This way, I will be in good books of GOD too.

"In context of the specific society in question - INDIA, as per the thread subject"

But I believe, other than being in good books of GOD, we got social commitment/responsibilities too. Off course this is also subjective, because all are humans and got their right to live the way they want in the society and with our social responsibilities we can live and let live all.

Either way, it's just how we take things up. People who are opposing legalization would ultimately fall in the same line of thinking - "Enakku Enna Pochchu" and carry on with what they believe in personally.

 

[Brahin]

Dear Renu and Amala,

I find both your posts very logical.

 

[sravna]

Dear SravnaJi,

Sorry to interrupt your post to Renu. That is the thing. I am not convinced that homosexuality has its roots only in sex. That was what I was hoping to establish earlier. Is it as simple as people with those tendencies just choose?

I would have thought a homosexual relationship is exactly like a hetero one with love, sharing, caring and whatever else that makes heteros more noble, except the progeny bit.

About the civilised bit, it is really subjective no? Many societies would view 'becoming really civilised' when we treat everyone as equals, with the same rights and no discrimination.

Dear Amala,

Correct me if I am wrong. When you are loving, caring and having other noble feelings towards others the relationship is called friendship. Why can't any two people if they don't have sexual feelings, be friends? Don't friends love, respect and care for each other? My objection is once you get that sexual feeling it overwhelms you. Excessive sexual feelings towards even the opposite sex is not desirable IMO.You lose your brain. That is the reason sex has to be straight. Not only sex has to be straight but any sort of perversions is not good. I would say perversion is the exact opposite of true love. But they have one thing in common. You cannot get out of either once you are in it.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Homosexuality cannot be compared with a criminal tendency.A criminal is a threat to society but a Homosexual is not.
If a homosexual forces sex on someone only then its a crime.
If both are consenting partners above the age of consent that I dont think its wrong.
I feel that way as evolved human beings none of us also should be engaged in sex with our spouses for pleasure cos thats still baser instincts.

Renuka,

I compared homosexuality with criminal tendency as something against your argument, that just because something is innate for somebody, they cannot be held responsible for it. What I said was, society has a role to play in such cases.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Amala,

Correct me if I am wrong. When you are loving, caring and having other noble feelings towards others the relationship is called friendship. Why can't any two people if they don't have sexual feelings, be friends? Don't friends love, respect and care for each other? My objection is once you get that sexual feeling it overwhelms you. Excessive sexual feelings towards even the opposite sex is not desirable IMO.You lose your brain. That is the reason sex has to be straight. Not only sex has to be straight but any sort of perversions is not good. I would say perversion is the exact opposite of true love. But they have one thing in common. You cannot get out of either once you are in it.

Sri Sravna,

I also have understood and got to know many a times long before and specially in the present youth generation, that, they consider sex as part of friendship needs. A need to be fulfilled for each other as friends and thus Love and Sex got no distinguishing factor. That's the reason many could not understand and accept that Love can be unconditional, love can be just emotional and love can be stable/constant, IMHO.

 

[renuka]

Sri Sravna,

I also have understood and got to know many a times long before and specially in the present youth generation, that, they consider sex as part of friendship needs. A need to be fulfilled for each other as friends and thus Love and Sex got no distinguishing factor. That's the reason many could not understand and accept that Love can be unconditional, love can be just emotional and love can be stable/constant, IMHO.

As far as I know Ravi,none of us "screwed "our friends.We were all Dost only and not Screwalas.

 

[Nara]

.... Not only sex has to be straight but any sort of perversions is not good. I would say perversion is the exact opposite of true love.

Sravna, would you consider sex with some sort of birth control, i.e. purely for pleasure not for reproduction, a perversion? If not, what acts would you consider perversion?

Thanks ....

 

[C RAVI]

As far as I know Ravi,none of us "screwed "our friends.We were all Dost only and not Screwalas.

Dear Renuka,

You seem to have mistaken me...I am sorry, if you had.

My post was not meant for any one specific here. It was in common and I am not talking baseless. We/I come across many cases in our/my social circle, where they openly agree.

I can not give real life stories, here in this forum, that I have come across in my social circle.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

You seem to have mistaken me...I am sorry, if you had.

My post was not meant for any one specific here. It was in common and I am not talking baseless. We/I come across many cases in our/my social circle, where they openly agree.

I can not give real life stories, here in this forum, that I have come across in my social circle.

Dear Ravi,

I intended it to be a funny post only.Dont worry I didnt get you wrong.