How to arrest the slide in TB numbers

[Vaagmi]

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மாகாணி needs no preservaties - not even oil - Soaked in தயிர் and lemon juice! But lot of labour invoved in peeling and cutting it to pieces!

I do not relish மாகாணிக் கிழங்கு ஊறுகாய். The flavour reminds me of a crushed மூட்டைப் பூச்சி. In my family we all agree on this and so strictly keep it out from the menu.

 

[krish44]

Since a reference has been made to my posts #$ and #36 by vaagmiji above, I am obliged to clarify.

#4 - I am all for brahmins to get brahmin matches. But the practical limitation is most of the educated working girls in tamilnadu are not ready to marry most in north

india. Their logic is boy should either be in chennai or bangalore nearby or US or canada is their goal. With this scenario,Boys in north are left with no alternative

except finding a caste near to their own in north india with similar exposure to metro lifestyle and language-hindi and english in addition to tamil.

#36 stems from the thought that if brahmins have to live comfortably in tamil nadu , there is no sense in isolating themselves from those who have feelings for tamil

cause in eelam , malaysia or singapore.TBs think only of brahmins in US or canada where they are in larger numbers. If brahmin claim that sanskrit alone is their

concern it only leads further to isolation in tamilnadu and to the charge they are aryans and outsiders.I hope this explains my posts

 

[auh]

And the vadu mangai prepared by some of the Nambudri Families in Kerala is unique. They select a certain uniformly mature vadus from a large number of pieces of various maturities and sizes first. Then these vadus after washing in salt water are applied a thin coat of castor seed oil/coconut oil. Then the other ingradients like turmeric, salt and chilli powder are added in appropriate quantitites according to taste and the mixture is left untouched for a week. The next step is the most unique one. These vadus along with the juices in which they marinate is transferred to a brand new mud pot which is then sealed appropriately and buried at least two cubits down into the earth in the garden. The pot is taken out after a period of 15 days and then the vadus are consumed. I have tasted these vadus and they are worth a fortune.

I had once tasted the vadumangai prepared by nambudiris... well, I didnt find it any more tastier than what we do at home.

The best vadumangai, imo, are the thirumurthi vadus... and right now, I am having one with thayir sadam... a small bit of vepillakatti and a small quantity of ullipoondu podi also...

 

[krish44]

Calling the society heterogeneus, I feel is to lead us to the path of aparteid of sorts advocating separate isolated development of some retaining the essentials [Rituals, caste

marks and other outward appearance of a brahminical order of the past hiding behind the word culture] . What is past and is dead as a dodo cannpot be revived again. It

is not for the good of anyone leave alone the brahmins. Brahmins have no choice except to follow the rules of a liberal society , inclusive and opening its doors to

others who to some extent subscribe to brahmins habits and way of living this should be easily possible . Any isolation further can lead only to a further downward

spiral of social exclusion and economic deprivation of the poor in the community

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

I had once tasted the vadumangai prepared by nambudiris... well, I didnt find it any more tastier than what we do at home.

The best vadumangai, imo, are the thirumurthi vadus... and right now, I am having one with thayir sadam... a small bit of vepillakatti and a small quantity of ullipoondu podi also...

About வேப்பல கட்டி Usually it is made with எலுமிச்சை But I prefer நார்த இலை I have both these & கறிவேப்பிலை plants in my Kitchen garden

 

[Vaagmi]

I had once tasted the vadumangai prepared by nambudiris... well, I didnt find it any more tastier than what we do at home.

The best vadumangai, imo, are the thirumurthi vadus... and right now, I am having one with thayir sadam... a small bit of vepillakatti and a small quantity of ullipoondu podi also...

Leaving aside nambudiris and the vadu oorukai that they prepare from their home grown mango vadus, the next best vadus I have ever tasted are from Madurai. The tender mango (vadus) we get in Madurai have a tingling taste which is unique and special to the vadus that are available there during seasons. These vadus are called malai vadus (meaning vadus from the hill) as they come from the hills around Madurai and Kodaikanal. The tingling taste perhaps has its origin in the particular type of soil in these hills and surroundings. We used to get these vadus from Madurai when the season starts and prepare our vadumanga oorukai. If people have not tried this they may do now and enjoy the special taste of Madurai vadus.

 

[Vaagmi]

About வேப்பல கட்டி Usually it is made with எலுமிச்சை But I prefer நார்த இலை I have both these & கறிவேப்பிலை plants in my Kitchen garden

View attachment 5539View attachment 5540

Without எலுமிச்சை இலை, நார்த்த இலை and ஓமம் veppilakkatti is no veppilakkatti.

 

[vgane]

RRji
You have made the compromises to fit into a family observing some religeous practices such as Madi and acharam . Some you follow inyour home and others only

when you visit inlaws.Most women follow the same approach even in modern days. They drink when it is made possible and consume non veg they desire outside when

they eat ou. they wear signs of marriage when the inlaws are around .They do not say 'Da' to their husband affectionately and switch over painfully to neenga.What

price they pay to preserve their marriage.

Krishji,

I am not sure on what basis you are generalizing about boozing & taking non veg by women..It will be less than a 0.5 % (a insignificant one) ..Our TB women have not caught on to those western influences the way you are generalizing be it the poor or the middle classes or the neo rich..It is not as decadent as you think...Delhi's culture is not set up by TB's in any case..It is the Punjabi elite who decide that!! The comment was uncalled & baseless!!

 

[vgane]

Shri Ganeshji,

So, you agree that as far as edible items are concerned, it does not matter who (whether B or NB) makes them as long as it tastes good. I fully agree. But the point we were discussing was preserving (and passing on to the ensuing generations) those things which were exclusive to the TB ways of living some hundred years or so ago, was it not? Or, is it simply increasing the number of population born to Tamil Brahmin couples (both husband and wife to be authentic Tamil Brahmins, no IC or IR mix anywhere up the line)? In the case of the latter, the real TB couples should be exhorted to produce more children, just by taking the example of Muslims; it is that simple, if feasible! But will it be possible—now or in the near future? That is what requires in-depth consideration.

Since we have already agreed that there is no problem with TB cuisine being "taken over" by NBs, what great objection can we have if some TB girl or boy marries a NB? Just like the sweets or VeppilaikkaTTi, they may well give birth to good quality offspring though we may have difficulty in granting them full Tamil Brahmin status. (I recollect my school days when boys who had a TB father and a nair woman for mother, being heckled as "saami Saami"! Tbs were usually addressed as "saami" in those days here, our of reverence, and the Sanskrit word Saami also means "half", you see!)

I there fore feel that no useful or tangible purpose will be served by compulsorily trying to bring down IC & IR marriages and thus trying to increase our share of total population anywhere.

Dear Sangomji,

What we are suggesting is not cultural aggrandizement as is the wont with Muslims who are directed by the Imams, Maulanas and Ulemas to follow polygamy and procreate atleast 6 children..We are talking about maintaining a healthy population growth of TB's so that the culture does not perish, which the current trends are indicating!..

 

[vgane]

Dear vganeji,

You made a marvellous effort to start a search for steps to be taken for the good of the brahmin community.

Our members have expressed their views.

1. sravnaji, as usual, has stressed on the acceptance of scriptures (post #3) and has gone another step and stressed that we should stop being casteist, stop looking down upon others as every being is inherently divine. Let there be just two groups only the spiritual and the materialistic, he said. There can not be a birth-based division among people he stressed further (post#6)

2. krish44ji, as usual stressed the need for freedom of choice across castes for marriage and offered tips for behaviour by boys on their dating outings. Though he compared your post to a ten point programme with the slogan brahmin bachao and compared it with the political parties' populist programmes he agreed with the basic thrust of what you have stated in your post. (post #4.) However he later, as the discussion progressed, veered round to the view that brahmins should become politically active and support causes of Tamil language and Tamil diaspora living in Eelam, S'pore and Malaysia. (post #36)

3. ganesh65ji, identified dowry as a major issue for the community.(post#7)

4. Mrs. Visalakshi, in an expansive mood, asked what is all this fuss about sliding of the numbers of brahmins and asked non-chalantly what if it does? She asked for a single true brahmin to be shown to her. She said expansively that every one should become a citizen of the world without boundaries of caste, creed, sects, languages, city, country, nation, religion etc., If boys and girls can meet each other, study together, work together, travel together etc., why should they not marry particularly as hormones and pheromones rules over them.(post#8) She later (in post #13) even quoted scientific laws to stress the need to recognize natural forces and give in.

5. Renukaji first came to bless your efforts with a tatastu (post #2) and later wondered (in post #17) whether TB women are not under tremendous amount of stress to conform to expectations-of the ritualistic variety.

6. tbsji quipped that we can control the TB boys but not the girls (post #16)

7. Zebraji, in post #38 asked you what exactly is the expectation from an agraharam and admitted that he had never lived in an agraharam. Again in his post #48 was doubtful about the utility of promoting Sanskrit.

8. RRji was sceptic about modernizing the houses in the agraharam (post #40.)

9. Sangomji came and damned the whole idea as அரைத்து அரைத்து புளித்துப்போன மாவு. He took cudgels on behalf of TB women and questioned the wisdom of calling them papayonis (a misquote from a verse in BG) (post #65)

10. JJji in her post #66 took off tangentially and brought in தயிர் சாதம், மாவடு,மாகாணிகிழங்கு ஊறுகாய் and வேப்பிலைக்கட்டி to the discussion table as cultural traits of TBs even while denouncing the culture as பெருங்காயம் வைத்த பாண்டம். post #66.

This is briefly the discussion so far.

May I interpret these views as an existential dilemma? "To be (a brahmin) or not to be" appears to be the basic dilemma here with many of our friends.

It is as if a community suffering a divine curse of some sort is trying to grope in the darkness for a light to switch on. Because of the constant and relentless attack on the community by a large majority outside, the individual member, many a time expresses a doubt about the validity of his origins as brahmin. Partly it is due the Goebbellsian propoganda that goes in the name of liberalism and intellectualism with a nefarious political hatred agenda at the base. The outward symptoms of this onslaught's devastating effect is 1) the frequent chest beating (ஒப்பாரி) and 2) the low self esteem expressed as a stockholm syndrome by becoming active supporters of the very political agenda that robed them of their self esteem and self respect. And partly it is also due to the inexorable march of time. It is forgotten that every development in the march of time may not be good and that there can be harmful developments too. Simply put, it appears people are ready to crawl and lick the boots of time to its own surprise when the time expected you only to bend and mend your ways. Time tested values are given up in a moment to acquire doubtful values in their place. Coming back to the discussion in hand, it is enough to say that the members have somehow missed the thrust of your opening post. So let us make a start to place the subject in its proper perspective and have further discussions on it.

I suggest the following points be accepted as basic facts so that a useful discussion can be had on how to move forward from here.

1. The society is by its very nature heterogeneous. And it has remained beautiful and functional that way in the last several hundreds of years.. There is no need to homogenise it and make it a place of morons. This does not mean that there are superior and inferior people and so inferior people should be slaves of superior people. We do not subscribe to that theory just as we do not subscribe to the other theory that all are equally endowed with. This is the subject which we have discussed repeatedly in this forum and it has become the அரைத்து அரைத்து புளித்துப் போன மாவு as a member stated. Once we accept the heterogeneous nature of the society, we can move forward with our discussion about the TB community's dwindling numbers and what it portends. If anyone wants to dispute this, we can discuss it elaborately in a different thread as we have enough expertise to do that -அரைச்ச மாவை அரைக்கவும் துவச்ச துணிய துவைக்கவும் .

(to be continued )

You have summarized it excellently through 10 bullets! Eagerly look forward to your posts for ameliorating the condition of TB's both in terms of numbers and culture!

 

[sravna]

TB culture is a sattvic culture. It will find survival difficult in rajassic times. So what will be the solutions especially if we do not want to give up our culture. The wise thing to do is to evolve further. We maintain our culture and try to adopt the best of others and make our culture not dependent on time.

Are members willing to discuss along these lines for some solution?

 

[Vaagmi]

Continued from post #100:

2. The brahmin community (birth based brahmins is talked about here as that is the only recognizable group) is certainly unique in that its culture, its traditions, its value system and belief system are distinct. They have consistently contributed to the society with a disproportionately large number of individuals from their stock/communit. Name any field-art, literature, business, language, pollitics, you have brahmins who have done well and the society can not ignore their contribution. I do not have to list these contributions elaborately as the ,members here may do that as the discussion progresses. Having contributed to the society in India, now they are contributing even in foreign countries which has become an envy of other communities. I know when i say this some members here will dispute every statement I have made here and would call names-that I am a chauvinist, a retard etc.,. But in their heart of heart they would also know that I am speaking truth. When I say brahmin community has contributed handsomely to the growth and welfare of this society in India, i am not thumping my chest and it is not an expression of vainglory. It is a fact about which I feel proud. I also realise the need to preserve this unique capacity of my community to contribute to the society.

In a military campaign when the battle reaches a closely fought attrition stage, the elites among the formations are moved in to take over the campaign-not because others are inferior but because the elites are elite and they have some special abilities which is not there with others. The others are equipped with a different set of skills.

Similarly brahmins are endowed with certain unique abilities. They have their culture, tradition and value system to thank for that.

This community is today facing a threat. Raw envy had been at work for a long time to politically isolate them and make them inconsequential. As politics is intertwined with economics and wealth, brahmins have suffered heavily. Now the campaign has moved from the envious stage to the coveting stage. The communities wealth is coveted. And their women are among that. The IC marriages hurt the brahmins in a very deep way. They lose not just a girl, but several things along with that one girl. And the inexorable march of time coupled with information explosion has made this plundering all the more easy. The community has been suffering due to large scale migration from their agraharams (where it was closed community) in the villages to the metros, cities and towns within the state as well as across the country. And they are now migrating to other countries too. The kind of cultural pressures, alien values and traditions etc., which impinge on the girls as they move across the globe are mostly poisonous to the community and its traditions.

We have discussed already enough about the harmful effects of IC marriage on the community and so we need not discuss it again here. It is enough if we accept that the community is under threat of cultural subjugation. If members have difference on this they can start a separate thread for that and we can discuss it there. We can move further accepting that the community's interests are under threat and its very survival is a question mark.

(To be continued)

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Vaagmi,

Good post. Though I would argue for tackling the problem by evolving ourselves since we can improve more, I agree the very survival is at threat and it needs forceful measures more first than intelligent ones. That is there is need to take care of immediate problems first. So one has first to understand well what the most pressing problems are and try to address them first.

I think members can contribute towards this.

 

[auh]

Let me also make some "puliccha dosai" from "araichu araichu pulicchu pona maavu"

The caption of the thread needs some elaboration,I think. It says - "How to arrest the slide in TB numbers". If we were to simply consider offsprings of brahmins, then the easy solution would be, as shri tks put it, to produce more offsprings. But ahh, how do we incentivise the TB couples to procreate more? Who will pay the burden of cost of bringing them up as good TBs in a high cost society? How can we ensure that the offsprings of such offsprings are TBs only?

If offsprings are not the criteria, then the problem becomes a bit complicated. And as Bush says through kamal haasan in the movie "Dasaavataaram", - If it's complicated, dont explain it.

 

[sravna]

To me the most pressing problems are:

1. Youngsters not believing in the culture. Think it is superstitious and illogical
2. IC, IR marriages
3.Addiction to western values

Though all the three are interrelated since we are treating them as immediate problems each has to be separately handled for quick results and to stem the rot.

For the first problem, an awareness initiative on what is good about the core values of the culture, has to be started and I am already planning on it. I am also planning to make it forceful.

IC, IR marriages are becoming prevalent because women have started to work and is a consequence of it. The influence of the media adds fuel to the fire. I would suggest a controversial solution of not encouraging women to go to work. I will talk more about it when members express their views.

Addiction to western values is again due to environmental factors. A negative campaign against such values need to be impressed upon by the elder family members. I too plan to start another initiative on what negative influences blind aping of western values can cause in us.

In my view these are culture threatening problems and need to be brought under control.

Once the situation eases a more constructive and embracing approach can be followed.

 

[mkrishna100]

1. The society is by its very nature heterogeneous. And it has remained beautiful and functional that way in the last several hundreds of years.. There is no need to homogenise it and make it a place of morons.

LOL Vaagmigi you really rock on .

 

[prasad1]

I know that I am supposed to agree with the majority, but i find it difficult.
Let us take the paragraph from post number 112, replace few words and see how racist it sounds.

2. The brahmin(white) community (birth based brahmins(white) is talked about here as that is the only recognizable group) is certainly unique in that its culture, its traditions, its value system and belief system are distinct. They have consistently contributed to the society with a disproportionately large number of individuals from their stock/communit. Name any field-art, literature, business, language, pollitics, you have brahmins(white) who have done well and the society can not ignore their contribution. I do not have to list these contributions elaborately as the ,members here may do that as the discussion progresses. Having contributed to the society in India(USA), now they are contributing even in foreign countries which has become an envy of other communities. I know when i say this some members here will dispute every statement I have made here and would call names-that I am a chauvinist, a retard etc.,. But in their heart of heart they would also know that I am speaking truth. When I say brahmin(white) community has contributed handsomely to the growth and welfare of this society in India(USA,and SA), i am not thumping my chest and it is not an expression of vainglory. It is a fact about which I feel proud. I also realise the need to preserve this unique capacity of my community to contribute to the society.

Let us take the same paragraph and change few words, and it reminds us of Hitler.

2. The brahmin(Aryan) community (birth based brahmins(Aryan) is talked about here as that is the only recognizable group) is certainly unique in that its culture, its traditions, its value system and belief system are distinct. They have consistently contributed to the society with a disproportionately large number of individuals from their stock/communit. Name any field-art, literature, business, language, pollitics, you have brahmins(Aryan) who have done well and the society can not ignore their contribution. I do not have to list these contributions elaborately as the ,members here may do that as the discussion progresses. Having contributed to the society in India(Germany), now they are contributing even in foreign countries which has become an envy of other communities. I know when i say this some members here will dispute every statement I have made here and would call names-that I am a chauvinist, a retard etc.,. But in their heart of heart they would also know that I am speaking truth. When I say brahmin(Aryan) community has contributed handsomely to the growth and welfare of this society in India(Germany), i am not thumping my chest and it is not an expression of vainglory. It is a fact about which I feel proud. I also realise the need to preserve this unique capacity of my community to contribute to the society.

You can not deny that Brahmins were a privileged class, and the effect still lingers. There is no guarantee that it will continue.

 

[prasad1]

What is Brahmin Culture?
Define precisely and show it is unique and not shared by others.
I think there is nothing unique about this mythical culture.
A living culture evolves over period of time. The only culture that stands still is the dead one.

 

[krish44]

Regarding post #100 of vaagmiji

My comments.

2. Brahmins concentrated on education before independance and were quick to seize the oppurtunities available by serving the white race ruling india before

independance. British realised they could be easily used as they were satvik and pliable. Aftr independance , these rose in civil service ranks and occupied positions

disproportionate to their numbers. Others did not realise what was happening to them and were left behind.Brahmins did not make a mark in business. Only they

served marwari ,gujarat businessmen and later MNCs.When tide turned against them in tamilnadu , they shifted to other parts of india and abroad.They were active in

politics as during freedom movement some brahmin lawyers joined the movement and later after independance some of them occupied the political space and enjoyed political

power until shown the door by others. In cultural aspects, such as music and dance etc it was as patron of these fine arts due to their economic prosperity. Any

community which is well off would do that, Not so well off when they wonder where their next meal is coming from these are luxuries.No big deal that brahmins

promoted culture.

Brahmin society at least in tamilnadu is marginalised and isolated. Others simply ignore them and forcing them out of economic and political space. Only a few private

business and MNCs employ them. We can live in a dream world talking about our past glories and achievements. Our present status is pathetic. Marginalised and made

strangers and unwanted in the state of their birth is their true status.It is not the well off in brahmin society outside tamilnadu and abroad that count. It is below

average and poor brahmins who are at the receiving end of caste reverse discrimination.This is nothing to be proud about. Brahmin society leaders have let them down

by not providing any leadership. They simply ran off to other places for better pastures. They are no better than kashmiri pandits .

 

[vgane]

Brahmin society leaders have let them down

by not providing any leadership. They simply ran off to other places for better pastures. They are no better than kashmiri pandits .

Why does the MSM not talk about this???

 

[tbs]

TB culture is a sattvic culture. It will find survival difficult in rajassic times. So what will be the solutions especially if we do not want to give up our culture. The wise thing to do is to evolve further. We maintain our culture and try to adopt the best of others and make our culture not dependent on time.

Are members willing to discuss along these lines for some solution?

hi

not even rajassic time....NOW MORE TAMASSIC TIME.......even rajassic is somewhat okay....so understand and move on....if we like or not....

things are happening...going to more happen in future....still we TB's are lucky.....our life is not worst like kashmiri pandits.....

so at least....we can safe in tamil nadu at present.....we should not make a situation like kashmir in tamil nadu....

 

[prasad1]

We have discussed this topic in a separate thread. Please visit that thread.
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=12246&p=189944#post189944

There is nothing called TB Culture as defined in a religious text. There is no TB identity. An Iyangar would rather associate with another Vashnav than associate with an Iyer.
A Bengali Brahmin has more in common with a Balgladeshi Muslim than a Tamil Brahmin.
I wrote:
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=12246&p=190698#post190698

Culture is learned, it is not genetic or inherited. Social Scientists through time have successfully proven that we learn behaviors that become part of who we are. In Communication Between Cultures it is said "Culture is the collective programming of the mind which distinguishes the members of one category of people from another." Quite simply this says that teaching with repetition (programming) can help differentiate (distinguish) between different types of people. With culture being a learned behavior it is easy to see how the increase of Mexican immigrants into California has affected both their culture and that of California.

 

[krish44]

hi

not even rajassic time....NOW MORE TAMASSIC TIME.......even rajassic is somewhat okay....so understand and move on....if we like or not....

things are happening...going to more happen in future....still we TB's are lucky.....our life is not worst like kashmiri pandits.....

so at least....we can safe in tamil nadu at present.....we should not make a situation like kashmir in tamil nadu....

I am not talking of physical safety.

It is a vegetable existence for them. The educated and enterprising have left tamilnadu leaving behind the retired , the below average and the poor. Most have left

agraharam , sold of their minor land holdings and shifted to cities.

In cities , they are not preferred in state govt employment or state educational institutions . They are dependant only on private sector .Since men are satvik, they are

ridiculed, lampooned in media as they enjoy no protection. What are their educated women expected to do? . Only traditiona lthoughts and rituals are thrust on them.

I can imagine their suffocation in this societal space. They under the guise of higher education and employment escape to neighbouring states or foreign country and

wary of returning to Tamilnadu.When it comes to marriage, they would marry anyone who would give them their individual free space to pursue their career and

interests. One can lament that they are crossing caste or religion barriers . Have we facilitated their life by meeting their needs for better living within the brahmin

society.It requires introspection at a personal level.

 

[renuka]

I would suggest a controversial solution of not encouraging women to go to work..

????????

Sravna..just imagine the plight of women and children if there are no female doctors and nurses?

Rural women need an improved health care system for maternal and child health care and they are more comfortable with female docs and nurses.

Just imagine if all doctors were male?

Even educated females prefer female doctors for their gynaecology needs.

Teaching profession too is better handled by female teachers especially pre school cos children are more relaxed with a mother like figure.

 

[tbs]

????????

Sravna..just imagine the plight of women and children if there are no female doctors and nurses?

Rural women need an improved health care system for maternal and child health care and they are more comfortable with female docs and nurses.

Just imagine if all doctors were male?

Even educated females prefer female doctors for their gynaecology needs.

Teaching profession too is better handled by female teachers especially pre school cos children are more relaxed with a mother like figure.

hi

women education may be good...not a professional woman....THE PROBLEM IS WOMEN USED TO BE SUPPLEMENT TO THE FAMILY...

NOW A DAYS.....A WORKINGS WOMAN IS REPLACING THE HUSBAND....means not supplementing ..instead due to economical

independence very harmful for the family...may be harmful for the community....sometimes for the country too...