How to arrest the slide in TB numbers

[krish44]

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The typical brahmin culture is difficult to follow and gets adjusted in many ways with time. In another thread, a member

wants to know whether the religious rites for pitrus could be performed abroad or not, because Maha Periyava has said that

the rites are to be performed ONLY in our 'puNya bhoomi' and if not, pitrus will starve without piNdam and curse them! :sad:

So what do brahmins settled abroad do? Come to this puNya bhoomi every time OR forget the rites?

:focus: The ways to retain the number of TBs (of course born brahmins) is to educate all ambis so that they will earn pockets

full. And also encourage them to become 'macho's so as to attract the well educated modern TB girls! :hug:

Settling a marriage is an art and one has to do what is possible. One cannot turn an average performer in education into a rank student nor a timid 'ammas boy' be

made 'Macho'. Does it mean these guys can never hope for a match? Hence the thought find a girl who is equally average from a not so well off family.Average boys

well off parents make up for his average academic credentials.You will often find matrimonial ads saying boy has a house in his name to compensate for his mediocre academic credentials

and low paid job

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

As women become more equal to men , alarm bells ring to bring out the worst in men.

There can be no true liberation of women without economic independance.

A liberal society is mark of 21st century civilisation.

India was known to be a country ages ago where women did enjoy some rights.

Now it appears a far dream.

Whenever any woman tries for genuine equality in right to education , work space or worship they get put down harshly.

Some women fight and succeed in getting what they want. Others silently bear the atrocities.

Some in this forum silently vanish if such topics are discussed instead of standing up for themselves.

Gender equality is the Key that will arrest sliding Numbers!

The feminist movement in India has often been accused of being westernised, leftist, overly aggressive and distinctly anti-men. The discourse about women’s empowerment has, therefore, been circumscribed by this image.

The image in some people’s minds always has been that of the other Indian woman — the one who appreciates “Indian culture”, who is not difficult, in contrast to the uncompromising atheist whose only intention is to destroy “Indian culture”.

These are women who see that equality of gender, as assured in the Indian Constitution, can no longer be limited by cultural concerns and arguments.

The future has arrived before they expected it and it is asking some difficult questions.
The writer is a hairy-legged atheist-cum-old-school feminist

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...URPX1BbICHH7_7LPg&sig2=GKlq8jBYvrYjIKFX1sG2iQ

 

[krish44]

Jj ji

Most traditional women whatever be their inner feelings would not come into the open with their views as it would damage their projection as traditional women . They

would like to carry on with the image of the sacrificial nari with no desire for anything and doing their duties alone serving their male partner.This conflict with self

often leads to a built up anger with no release mechanism. These women try to bring up their daughters in such a way they do not have to put up with a patriarchal

society with male domination. They even settle scores with men using their daughters.Many times son-in law bears the brunt of this action of older generation.Thats

why before marrying a girl meet the prospective mother in law.Lol

 

[Vaagmi]

1) My comment from earlier post is still open. Except the odd comment from Sravanaji, which way a jumbled words without meaning or specificity.

2) Sangomji , ahji, krishji, and others explained that there is nothing specific about Brahmins.

3) There is no gene called Brahmin gene, or any specific behavior that is exclusive to Beahmins.

4) There have been great human beings without being born brahmin. I can name many such persons, but you might have others.
I also know of Brahmins who were are are crooks. I am sure you too know a few.

1) Sravana ji will answer this in course of time. Some people believe in dropping wisdom capsules here by borrowing and reproducing them here. At least Sravna is expressing his own views however controversial they may be.

2) That is love for hearing our own voice echoed. It is soothing to hear it when we have closed our ears and mind to other inputs.

3) No one gave any name to the gene. But the fact that the gene that is influenced by an environment of sAtvic living for centuries is not the same as the one which grew in an environment of Tamasic/rajasic living. There is scientific evidence for this. So the gene of a brahmin is not the same as the gene of a NB as the two have undergone different processes from their environment. There may be exceptions but they do not make the rule.

4) There have been great NB human beings. Agreed. There had been far more numbers of great B human beings. There had been crooks in all community but they are far less in B community.

If you take the achievers from the B community and NB community and relate their number to the share of their community in the total population of the country, you will get the facts clear. The frequent occurrence of brilliance in the community is not without reason and certainly not a random occurrence. I am not a chauvinist. But I am also not afraid of recognizing truths as they present themselves before me whatever this world of stupid revolutionary homogenising fervor may say. My being a brahmin is just incidental in this.

And crooks. Yes there are crooks among brahmins too like there are crooks among NBs. But you never come across these crooks as frequently as you do with the other crooks unless you are particularly fond of keeping company with B crooks. This morning I read a news item which spoke about a man killing his wife and children in cold blood because of his financial troubles. Two days back I read another story in newspaper about a man in maharashtra killing every one in the family (wife, children, mother, father, sister, B-in-law, nieces everybody) by slitting their throats one by one after giving them a sumptuous dinner. In all my years of living in this country I have yet to come across a similar story involving a brahmin.

The fact that brahmins are a sAtvik, pious, peace loving, knowledgeable and enterprising community is a given fact. Their positive contribution to the society is so great that this society will never be able to forget it or paper over it. There is no use trying to treat them as just another group in a homogeneous mass just to degrade them and trivialise their contribution.

 

[Vaagmi]

Settling a marriage is an art and one has to do what is possible. One cannot turn an average performer in education into a rank student nor a timid 'ammas boy' be

made 'Macho'. Does it mean these guys can never hope for a match? Hence the thought find a girl who is equally average from a not so well off family.Average boys

well off parents make up for his average academic credentials.You will often find matrimonial ads saying boy has a house in his name to compensate for his mediocre academic credentials

and low paid job

This is completely one sided. It is as if the girls are all beauties with full lips like Priyanka Chopra with an enticing twitch of a Malala Yusufzai smile to top it up. The average girl with average looks and average pay packet should not demand a Macho Hridik Roshan. They should settle for an average ambi and try to make him a puli (tiger). Otherwise they will end up in the kitchens of strange NB homes cooking fish curry and mutton kabab.

Academic credentials are just tickets to enter the movie hall. There is a larger world outside the movie hall where many an interesting drama of life is played out. Without academic credentials a lot more can be achieved. Dhirubhai Ambani, son of a cap and kachcham wearing primary school teacher in the sleepy village of Chorwad (Gujarat), when he landed in Aden had just the knowledge of single entry book keeping common to Gujarati housewives. It earned him just the job of a tally clerk in the port of Aden.

 

[krish44]

A man who is mediocre can only become a little better . Everyone cannot be a D.Ambani.Planning can only on the basis of incremental change in status.

If some girls -however average they are have higher level aspirations { it is not wrong to have aspirations] and they think they can get the same by opting for a macho

boy from another community who will accept her then why should not she opt for him.his food preferances should not prevent a girl from achieving her dreams. All

want good life. Average not withstanding also have the freedom to choose what they consider best out of choices available.Caste has nothing to do with it.

I will tell you about a brahmin girl , good looking and not so mediocre. When a NB from a stinkingly rich family owning education institutitions proposed marriage to

her , she set her terms. PG education with all expenses paid in US in return for marrying him. He accepted her terms and married her with consent of both families.

She is now in a senior position in a MNC in US with a MS degree from a decent univ. She could hardly have got this if she had married a brahmin.

Brahminism cannot be a hindrance to decent living .

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Jj ji

Most traditional women whatever be their inner feelings would not come into the open with their views as it would damage their projection as traditional women . They

would like to carry on with the image of the sacrificial nari with no desire for anything and doing their duties alone serving their male partner.This conflict with self

Sacrificing Pathivrathas of bygone centuries! Chavunistic imagine them in 2016 ! These sacrIficing glorified traditional Naris are on the decline!

When Yashodhara was informed that Siddhartha would be leaving his life in the royal palace, including her and their son, she wasn't shocked. She had somehow prepared herself of this eventuality, and took her husband's decision as a brave woman. Not for once, did she try to stop him and argue with this quest for enlightenment.

For all, who came to her with pity, she had only one answer, “We need to lose small things to gain big things in life.

She lived the Buddha’s life — in the palace. She took steps to become a nun, eventually becoming an arahant.

http://www.speakingtree.in/slidesho...e-life-of-bhikkuni-after-buddha-abandoned-her

 

[krish44]

JJ ji

You might sneer and behave such traditional women do not exist in 2016.

Far from it.

Those who are economically dependant on men and are at husbands mercy find devious ways of getting around the issue of gender inequality.Their daughters are forced

into becoming torch bearers of womens movement by their mothers and these helpless girls cannot enjoy a balanced relationship with boys based on give and take.

The girls become extremists on instigation from their mothers. Thats why one finds many TB girls in tamil nadu different from others in the country.

 

[Raji Ram]

........... The average girl with average looks and average pay packet should not demand a Macho Hridik Roshan. They should settle for an average ambi and try to make him a puli (tiger). ...........

Good idea, Vaagmi Sir, but will they settle for an average ambi? Not so, now a days.

I see many handsome well settled boys agreeing to marry average looking girls, just because the parents want a B girl as their d i l.

One dad was frantic in getting a d i l from a 'known' family because the elder son chose his partner from another religion. The boy

was forced to get married to her because the dad wanted at least one brahmin d i l in his family! That is life, Sir!

P.S: That handsome boy has a doctorate degree and is very fair. :thumb:

 

[sravna]

I think Vaagmi Ji is correct when he says that brahmins had something unique about them . I would add that other groups also had something unique about them. Since in the earlier times people were separated according to their spiritual nature those who were selected for high spirituality had an advantage when it came to knowledge. One need not be a rocket scientist to understand this. Similarly other groups who were slected for other positive traits excelled in the fields in which they had aptitude for.

But frankly it is right to encourage all those who have inclinations for spirituality to join the spiritual fold. We cannot think of finer ditictions in a kali yuga. People should be given an opportunity to develop the innate spirituality in them if they want to.

 

[renuka]

Actually I wonder why the big fuss about gender equality and males feeling insecure with women empowerment.

Just take a look at our trinity..Brahma,Vishnu and Shiva...its their counterpart Shaktis who are more active than any one of them!LOL

The Purusha principle is Passive...the Prakirti Principle is dynamic and active.

I guess we must learn from our Trimurtis.

So guys...women are here to stay..Here I am! Rock you like a hurricane!

 

[renuka]

So the gene of a brahmin is not the same as the gene of a NB as the two have undergone different processes from their environment. There may be exceptions but they do not make the rule.

Dear Vaagmi ji,

If you are talking strictly genetics here..you could have a point..wait wait...that does not mean I am supporting the Vaagmi gene theory.

But some genetic link to behavior is certainly there.

I know a person a very distant relative who does not know that she is adopted..looks wise since she is fairly good looking like the rest of her adopted family members so no one guesses she is adopted.

But I have noted that she has no inclination to working hard and studying like the rest of her family members..she also is rather defiant and has a particular behavior of using a blade to inflict cuts on herself when she is angry.

Now self mutilation is a particular habit I have seen in most lower economic status homes(she was from a poor home)..but this girl was adopted by a rich family..yet she has this behavior which no one else has in her adopted family.

So to some extent genes do influence our behavior.

Now next is..everything is not genes alone it when we talk about Vasanas.

A person who is a Brahmin could have been even a NB /Non Indian/Non Hindu in a previous birth..not to mention all his previous births.

So even among Brahmins there might not be uniform behavior as totally identical to each other.

In forum itself you can see the differences in thought among TBs.

So from the Vasana point of view..how would you describe the Brahmin Vasana Karmic imprint influencing the Brahmin Gene?

 

[sravna]

Actually I wonder why the big fuss about gender equality and males feeling insecure with women empowerment.

Just take a look at our trinity..Brahma,Vishnu and Shiva...its their counterpart Shaktis who are more active than any one of them!LOL

The Purusha principle is Passive...the Prakirti Principle is dynamic and active.

I guess we must learn from our Trimurtis.

So guys...women are here to stay..Here I am! Rock you like a hurricane!

Dear Renuka,

Women need no empowerment. They are the ones with power. A modern example of shiva and shakthi would be electricity and bulb. Shakthi is the electricity that powers the bulb. Without electricity the bulb will not work.

Let me think how it actually applies apart from shiva and shakthi to normal man and woman

 

[renuka]

A modern example of shiva and shakthi would be electricity and bulb. Shakthi is the electricity that powers the bulb. Without electricity the bulb will not work.

But I have a feeling the average Indian male still prefers tubelights!

 

[sravna]

But I have a feeling the average Indian male still prefers tubelights!

Female is the electricity remember? Tubelight has to be the male

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Vaagmi ji,

If you are talking strictly genetics here..you could have a point..wait wait...that does not mean I am supporting the Vaagmi gene theory.

But some genetic link to behavior is certainly there.

I know a person a very distant relative who does not know that she is adopted..looks wise since she is fairly good looking like the rest of her adopted family members so no one guesses she is adopted.

But I have noted that she has no inclination to working hard and studying like the rest of her family members..she also is rather defiant and has a particular behavior of using a blade to inflict cuts on herself when she is angry.

Now self mutilation is a particular habit I have seen in most lower economic status homes(she was from a poor home)..but this girl was adopted by a rich family..yet she has this behavior which no one else has in her adopted family.

So to some extent genes do influence our behavior.

Now next is..everything is not genes alone it when we talk about Vasanas.

A person who is a Brahmin could have been even a NB /Non Indian/Non Hindu in a previous birth..not to mention all his previous births.

So even among Brahmins there might not be uniform behavior as totally identical to each other.

In forum itself you can see the differences in thought among TBs.

So from the Vasana point of view..how would you describe the Brahmin Vasana Karmic imprint influencing the Brahmin Gene?

Dear Renukaji,

I am glad that you have understood the principle of genetic link to behaviour. It is ok that I have noted that it is a half hearted admission.That was precisely what I was driving at with our enthusiasts of homogenisation here. They are unable to distinguish between the genetic link and birth right of human beings. While every human being born here has equal right to the common wealth of nature here, they are not basically a homogeneous mass.

About your question regarding vasanas, I have this to say:

Once the life here comes to an end it is a real end and vasanas just do not trail you. In the next janma it is a clean slate you start with as far as vasanas are concerned. Depending on your unspent balance in the karma account you get your circumstances in the new janma and not vasanas of the previous janma.

You have a right to have your own opinion on this. This is what I have understood.

 

[Vaagmi]

But I have a feeling the average Indian male still prefers tubelights!

I do not know about the average Indian male. The average TB male certainly knows where his domination/lead role ends and independence of the female starts. Otherwise the bride shortage talked about would be non existant. Every female would have been compulsorily married to a male - whether she likes it not.

 

[Vaagmi]

Actually I wonder why the big fuss about gender equality and males feeling insecure with women empowerment.

Just take a look at our trinity..Brahma,Vishnu and Shiva...its their counterpart Shaktis who are more active than any one of them!LOL

The Purusha principle is Passive...the Prakirti Principle is dynamic and active.

I guess we must learn from our Trimurtis.

So guys...women are here to stay..Here I am! Rock you like a hurricane!

I do not think that the TB women ever needed any empowerment. They take the power and quietly enjoy it.

It was always they who wielded the control lever in families. They only allowed the males a long rope and at the end of the day he had to return to his allotted slot in the cowshed. If the fellow achieved anything notable, she knew it that he owed it to her in a very fundamental way. When he cuts a sorry figure, she laughs quietly because she knew the fellow's follies and weaknesses like she knows the back of her hand. She can goad the fellow on to win his races and battles constantly reminding him that she is there to take care of him if he ever fails and gets hurt. The beauty is that he knows this and she knows that he knows this.

When she got a dud for her man, she quitely bears with a grin and carry on. That is the greatness of thaikkulam. LOL.

This is the bonus for you, the hurricane, just to hear and enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB6_iLzl4dM

 

[biswa]

Dear Biswa,

It is a person opinion. I do not believe in giving scientifically correct opinions.

Well said! Appreciate your honesty.

 

[biswa]

This thread has reminded me of the notorious Eugenics movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

the promotion of higher rates of sexual reproduction for people with desired traits (positive eugenics), or reduced rates of sexual reproduction and sterilization of people with less-desired or undesired traits (negative eugenics), or both

Bone chilling, and echoes of Nazism. Prasadji is quite right in his conclusions.

 

[prasad1]

I do not think that the women ever needed any empowerment. They take the power and quietly enjoy it.

If true then why
[h=2]“Pray that we never see this day. Today, more than 68% of women in India are victims of domestic violence. Tomorrow, it seems like no woman shall be spared. Not even the ones we pray to.”[/h]
[h=2]Last year alone, 244,270 crimes against women were reported in the country.[/h]

 

[zebra16]

Since it is a very long post, let me just focus on the crux of the issue.



Why is a certain form of dress or a particular form of getup such an integral part of culture?

I apologise for the delay in responding to this post, as this escaped my attention and I have not been too regular.

A certain form of dress or a particular form of getup or set up is indeed considered an integral part of the culture, the world over. I can give you two prominent examples to drive home this point:

(a) When Heads of States visit other countries, they surely don themselves in the attire of the culture of the country they represent. It is not as if Indian Prime Minister or President or any Head of the African country cannot dress themselves in suit-boot and tie when they visit USA. But they being the cultural ambassadors of their respective country make it a point be dressed in their native fashion. This does not make one's culture inferior or superior to the other, but merely emphasises the diversity of culture.

Similarly when the visiting dignitary is welcomed with rose petals, garlands, application of tilak etc. (when they visit India) it is a welcome in traditional cultural style and I have not come across any news item by the visiting dignitary protesting to such a welcome.

(b) In marriages, which is considered to be the most important occasion of anybody's life, we find that the couple sticking to the traditional dress. In this forum itself I have come across some posts where the groom not belonging to the TB culture insisted for the marriage to be solemnized in the traditional TB manner (including pancha kachcham and nadaswaram etc). Even in same religion marriages you would find that the couple being adorned in the traditional manner.

When such being the case, why are we becoming defensive in following our own culture? Are we developing INFERIORITY COMPLEX that our culture is not worth abiding?

So certain form of dress or a particular form of get up indeed make an integral component of a culture. To throw it away would mean moving away from the society. I thought this thread was all about being absorbed into and/or becoming an integral part of the culture and why would someone intentionally move away from it?

Why don't we focus to a more prevalent and positive form of culture such as getting good ranks in IIT exam, getting a software job or even getting a US green card. Are these not more of an achievement than how someone ties their saree? What is the need to stick to 100 year old fashion? Who will benefit?

I think you are unintentionally conflating two issues. I do not suppose getting good marks in IITs or getting a green card to USA etc is a cultural achievement or giving up of one's culture. How can achievement in this field be compared to tying of sareees? Conversely, do you suppose forgetfulness to zip the pant will dis-entitle an IIT-an of his achievement?

99.99% of young people have already voted with their feet.

If this is what is expected of a "culture", and here I mean "any culture" (not merely TB), then one has to concede that ALL cultures have failed. The success rate of people getting US green card is in single digit (if it is not in some decimal) compared to the total aspirants which is an abysmal rate of success.

99.9% of 0.000004% does not constitute a big number.

This particular line makes me feel that an aspiration to bagging an IIT admission, joining a software job (preferably in US) and the ultimate green card possession is a culture in itself and it is at odds with TB culture.

 

[Vaagmi]

If true then why
“Pray that we never see this day. Today, more than 68% of women in India are victims of domestic violence. Tomorrow, it seems like no woman shall be spared. Not even the ones we pray to.”


Last year alone, 244,270 crimes against women were reported in the country.

We are talking about TB women and I dont believe this figure of 68% is applicable to them. If it applies to them please provide the source of this info and the methodology adopted for collating this info. When I said what is quoted, I was speaking about TB women. Period.

 

[zebra16]

Dear vganeji,


7. Zebraji, in post #38 asked you what exactly is the expectation from an agraharam and admitted that he had never lived in an agraharam. Again in his post #48 was doubtful about the utility of promoting Sanskrit.

This definitely is not the gist of what I wanted to convey. So please let me amplify:

(a) I asked Vgane about what is his expectation from an agraharam because his post mentioned only about protecting agraharam from losing its sheen and buying at least one house in agraharam and nurturing it. There is not any mention of any poster going to agraharam house and residing in it for good. If the stalwarts are not going to reside in a agraharam house, but merely buy it out of nostalgia (and may be let it out for occupation by other brahmins either for rent or rent-free), what good would it achieve?

We are at best postponing the decay (or loss of sheen of agraharam) by utmost one or two generation. I do not think it is a permanent solution to arrest the slide of TB numbers in any meaningful way.

2. About Sanskrit I re-iterate that we are paying only lip service without doing anything tangible. I did not allude to non-utility of Sanskrit by any means. Learning Sanskrit in 3 months or 100 days etc. are mere STUNTS that too indulged by people who are retired or who are about to retire. Let us endeavour to do something really substantial.

3. The INTERNET RUBBISH that regularly gets posted in this forum as the purported meaning of very common slokams or even Gayatri Mantram is proof enough that North Pole is located in Begusarai in Bihar.

 

[sangom]

For all the learned discussions by equally learned members of this forum, I would like to remind one small thing and that is that there never was any static and immutable thing called TB culture. It is true that our numbers are dwindling and our cultural practices and priorities have been changing with the pressures of changing times, scientific advances in the world around us and political changes in our country (as well as abroad, now that a good number of our people are spread all over the world.).

This thread was titled "How to arrest the slide in TB numbers". For this there is no direct link to IC or IR marriages, because, if the objective is to increase our numbers, not considering anything else, the clear solution is "go forth and multiply!". Our marriages should take place as soon as a boy or girl reaches the legally permissible age and every couple in the reproductive age group must strive to produce as many children as possible. As an incentive we can have awards for the most prolific couple in the village, district, state or even an international award of some really good worth (say, a million US Dollars!).

Additionally, we may make all children of TB girls and boys as genuine TBs irrespective of the caste/religion of the spouse and this condition may be got accepted in writing by the non-TB spouse before the marriage itself.

I feel the above steps should solve the problem to a very large extent.