intercaste marriages

[KRS]

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Dear Sri Sangom Ji,

By all means, please continue by all means on discussing Hinduism.

I second Sri Kunjuppu Ji's and Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji's sentiments.

Regards,
KRS

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Kunjuppu,

In this world, a parent, a father, cannot "impart", in the sense "teach" any value to his children, IMHO. The best that can be done is that we do not play "hypocrite" towards our children though it may be necessary to lie to someone in front of them at times. And it is very likely that children will question you or sometimes even expose the lie in front of the very people to whom we so act. Never scold the children for that and try to make them understand, if they can. Once they know that you are not setting one rule for yourself and another for them (children) as regards moral values and that you are open to them, they will learn, each according to his/her nature. I feel our duty as parent can go only this far.

absolutely correct dear sangom.

each time, i do something which is outside of the familiar, i have misgivings. am i throwing away milleniums worth of treasures, because i cannot come to terms with it.

but i have found, that this very doubt is the source of my credibility with my children.

if i tell them anything that justifies caste and go along the normal apology for the varna system, i would be lying - to myself and to my children.

i think even without realizing, i was looking for sustainable values good for a lifetime, regardless of where they lived, and which they could follow and practise ie set them for success as opposed to constant conflicts.

after all, for the common man, spiritual values should be consistent and while not really providing a pillar of support, should atleast be a term of reference. atleast that is the way i see it. to tell you the truth, this is the first time that i am able to coherently (somewhat) verbalise what i have been practising.

again, i believe, if it sounds reasonable and fair, the children will give it atleast a hearing. you are right sangom, in that, we cannot and should not, expect anything more.

thank you.

 

[sangom]

absolutely correct dear sangom.

each time, i do something which is outside of the familiar, i have misgivings. am i throwing away milleniums worth of treasures, because i cannot come to terms with it.

but i have found, that this very doubt is the source of my credibility with my children.

if i tell them anything that justifies caste and go along the normal apology for the varna system, i would be lying - to myself and to my children.

i think even without realizing, i was looking for sustainable values good for a lifetime, regardless of where they lived, and which they could follow and practise ie set them for success as opposed to constant conflicts.

after all, for the common man, spiritual values should be consistent and while not really providing a pillar of support, should atleast be a term of reference. atleast that is the way i see it. to tell you the truth, this is the first time that i am able to coherently (somewhat) verbalise what i have been practising.

again, i believe, if it sounds reasonable and fair, the children will give it atleast a hearing. you are right sangom, in that, we cannot and should not, expect anything more.

thank you.

Dear Kunjuppu,

I had one daayaadi (chithappa muRai) who had three sons. All three grew up in the same atmosphere. One became a fraud (though very intelligent professor) and died incognito, so to say, and the second - a very nice and capable young man, died of brain tumour. The third is a scientist known world-wide. That is why I say that parents can impart moral values only to a certain extent.

 

[suraju06]

dear suraju,

i think we all of a choice especially when imparting values.

for example, when i had my poonal, i had my NB friends hovering about. the vathiyar immediately drew me aside, and told me that under no circumstance was i to utter hymns like gayathri in front of shudras.

that these were my dearest friends, he did not understand.

this was my initation into the world of double standard of our caste - one rule before God for us. another for the others.

it so happened that i went to a catholic school. even though the tamil catholics practised the concept of caste, before their god, they considered all of them equal.

to me, this entrenched sense of superiority, expressed in so many subtle but definite ways, is one that i cannot live with myself. hence, i had a choice. like many other tambrams in toronto, blindly repeat what they have heard from their parents, or come up with a more egalitarian approach to our traditions.

i chose the latter. so you see suraju, i had a choice. i exercised it.

i am not saying it is the right one. for as a parent, i am always in doubt about the values i have imparted. for you never know, how these could be turned around, later in life.

after all, i myself, am a perfect example of that. unfortunately, my dad is not around, to answer that query.

thank you.

Dear Kunjuppu,
You should have asked your vadhyar the reason for his advice. Jumping to the conclusion that it is a manifestation of caste prejudice was your mistake. The vadhyar did a mistake by not putting you in the loop by giving the reasons so that you would not do it not only on that day but ever thereafter. But these are just mistakes people commit. We all commit such mistakes. If you have a grievance against the vadhyar for his failure to give you the reasons what about your grievance against yourself for not asking and for jumping to conclusions? So your initiation was itself flawed.

You have said the tamil catholics practised casteism but considered all as equal before God. Is there not a contradiction?

sense of superiority and inferiority comes from achievements. When Sachin tendulkar pumps his hand into the space after hitting a century it is a sense of superiority expressed for his achievement. What is wrong with that? Only if you feel insecure for some secret reasons at such display of power and achievement you will resent it. But it is a natural instinct for human beings to feel on top of the world when they excel. But when one who has nothing to his credit pumps his hand into the space we call it lunacy. The society automatically takes care of such loonies. There is no need to make it an issue and shine in the glory that follows in criticising it. And , yes, when a group indulges in a lot of mutual back-slapping for such orchestrated criticism and the resultant noice reaches a crescendo I feel .......... you know what.

Egalitarian outlook and faith in one's cultural roots or being genuinely proud of the achievements are not mutually exclusive.

Your choice is yours. I have nothing to say about that.

Cheers.

 

[happyhindu]

sense of superiority and inferiority comes from achievements. When Sachin tendulkar pumps his hand into the space after hitting a century it is a sense of superiority expressed for his achievement. What is wrong with that? Only if you feel insecure for some secret reasons at such display of power and achievement you will resent it. But it is a natural instinct for human beings to feel on top of the world when they excel. But when one who has nothing to his credit pumps his hand into the space we call it lunacy. The society automatically takes care of such loonies. There is no need to make it an issue and shine in the glory that follows in criticising it. And , yes, when a group indulges in a lot of mutual back-slapping for such orchestrated criticism and the resultant noice reaches a crescendo I feel .......... you know what.

Shri Raju,

Tendulkar has every reason to be happy when he hits a century. For that matter everyone has every reason to be happy with Tendulkar and a good game of cricket.

How can one compare Tendulkar's achievements with a bunch of people who claim to be superior merely for birth ? Simply because the dharma-shastras brackets people by birth in a grading system ?

Well, there is nothing wrong with self-glorification (and vanity), but why does it have to come at the cost of degrading other people (merely for their birth)?

Each time i see this discussion on superiority and inferiority am baffled. Why cannot people be considered EQUAL in the eyes of God? Why does it have to be only either "superior"" or "inferior" ?

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Kunjuppu,
You should have asked your vadhyar the reason for his advice. Jumping to the conclusion that it is a manifestation of caste prejudice was your mistake. The vadhyar did a mistake by not putting you in the loop by giving the reasons so that you would not do it not only on that day but ever thereafter. But these are just mistakes people commit. We all commit such mistakes. If you have a grievance against the vadhyar for his failure to give you the reasons what about your grievance against yourself for not asking and for jumping to conclusions? So your initiation was itself flawed.

You have said the tamil catholics practised casteism but considered all as equal before God. Is there not a contradiction?

sense of superiority and inferiority comes from achievements. When Sachin tendulkar pumps his hand into the space after hitting a century it is a sense of superiority expressed for his achievement. What is wrong with that? Only if you feel insecure for some secret reasons at such display of power and achievement you will resent it. But it is a natural instinct for human beings to feel on top of the world when they excel. But when one who has nothing to his credit pumps his hand into the space we call it lunacy. The society automatically takes care of such loonies. There is no need to make it an issue and shine in the glory that follows in criticising it. And , yes, when a group indulges in a lot of mutual back-slapping for such orchestrated criticism and the resultant noice reaches a crescendo I feel .......... you know what.

Egalitarian outlook and faith in one's cultural roots or being genuinely proud of the achievements are not mutually exclusive.

Your choice is yours. I have nothing to say about that.

Cheers.

Dear Kunjuppu,
You should have asked your vadhyar the reason for his advice. Jumping to the conclusion that it is a manifestation of caste prejudice was your mistake. The vadhyar did a mistake by not putting you in the loop by giving the reasons so that you would not do it not only on that day but ever thereafter. But these are just mistakes people commit. We all commit such mistakes. If you have a grievance against the vadhyar for his failure to give you the reasons what about your grievance against yourself for not asking and for jumping to conclusions? So your initiation was itself flawed.

You have said the tamil catholics practised casteism but considered all as equal before God. Is there not a contradiction?

sense of superiority and inferiority comes from achievements. When Sachin tendulkar pumps his hand into the space after hitting a century it is a sense of superiority expressed for his achievement. What is wrong with that? Only if you feel insecure for some secret reasons at such display of power and achievement you will resent it. But it is a natural instinct for human beings to feel on top of the world when they excel. But when one who has nothing to his credit pumps his hand into the space we call it lunacy. The society automatically takes care of such loonies. There is no need to make it an issue and shine in the glory that follows in criticising it. And , yes, when a group indulges in a lot of mutual back-slapping for such orchestrated criticism and the resultant noice reaches a crescendo I feel .......... you know what.

Egalitarian outlook and faith in one's cultural roots or being genuinely proud of the achievements are not mutually exclusive.

Your choice is yours. I have nothing to say about that.

Cheers.

Dear Raju,

Like you I grew up with superiority complex as a child.As I became more matured I read a little bit more , seen more things in life. Superiority complex is never good- humility is best. Culture to some people is important. Whoever is proud has stopped knowledge growth. It is impractical to expect people born in another culture to accept your culture after marriage. If you dont want to compromise culture marry within your group. Do it silently. If somebody is different you may give polite suggestions.
Leave it there.

A river when it flows , divides into many streams. Same with humans. Accept difference follow your practices if you like it. Understand that like river humans will divide and may be even join later. It is natural , my experience has taught. Joining after separation is also possible.

My uncle in those days did a major revolution by marrying out of caste. Imagine in sixties. Life comes a full circle , his daughter married a brahmin- Love marriage. But she is bringing a mixed culture in the family. Good or bad, it is individual view.

When I married outside my subcaste the same things came then superiority-inferiority eva-ava. People who made fun of my inter-subcaste marriage , today they are far more away from where my family is in terms of culture. Same thing can be true in inter-caste , inter-religious etc. Lot of people will give lots of examples so I will not repeat. I never teach superiority to younger generation. They are within the caste until now. I accept the possibility that it may not always happen. I dont know and I will not worry.

பராசரும் ஜாதி விட்டு கல்யாணம் பண்ணிண்டு தான மஹா ரிஷி வியாசர் பொறந்தார் ?

As far as I am concerned , let us do what we feel is right. Let us think practically depending on our circumstance and the elders in the family. Practical living is the survival key word of a human being. Live, think and adapt.

 

[subbudu1]

absolutely correct dear sangom.

each time, i do something which is outside of the familiar, i have misgivings. am i throwing away milleniums worth of treasures, because i cannot come to terms with it.

but i have found, that this very doubt is the source of my credibility with my children.

if i tell them anything that justifies caste and go along the normal apology for the varna system, i would be lying - to myself and to my children.

.

sirunthavare,

You are worrying and thinking too much. Your children will also think independantly. Dont be surprised if your grandson or granddaughter becomes iskconite after your son marries in a different caste or different country. They may wear poonal and do poojai also. Life comes a full circle. Let us hold on to நேர்மை ஞாயம் தர்மம் , teach that on children. If they leave these three things they will be in trouble and in jail. Other than that they may accept things if they like it or rebel - who knows?

 

[Nara]

I am surprised that even senior members like Nara and others do seem to feel that only Brahmins are opposed to inter-caste marriages.

Dear Shri Nacchinarkiniyan, I have never said anything to imply Brahmins are the only ones who oppose icm. I am quite aware that the hierarchically graded and endogamous caste system permeates the entire society from Brahmins at the top deep down to the lowliest of Dalits. This being a forum for Tamil Brahmins the discussion revolves around TBs.

Cheers!

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Why should anybody marry anybody? These days only money marries money. Where it is not the case, it will be made up so. It is better to be independent for both male and female. There is not going to be family, nor community, nor region, nor nation and nor race either. We are all being lead to a new world order of disorder. Why not every individual infant or aged be independent? Let us usher in the new world where there will not be a forum or a site like this to mourn, groan, grumble and brumble expressing opinions we do not believe in.

 

[Nara]

Wow Renu, what do we have here, Jhansi Rani? From what you have written in this post I have to agree, you fear nothing

Since your challenge is generally addressed to "Agnostics", one could say I am one in a technical sense, I would like to jump in, hope you don't mind.

..all of you guys who claim to be Agnostic now were once upon a time some ritualistic individual whose life didnt really go the way they wanted it to be.

Are you not being "cock sure" here, the same level of surety you decry later, in a different context? Be that as it may, is there a rule that once you are ritualistic, then that is it, you can never abandon the ways of the faithful? For some this may come because of the reason you state, but for many others the reasons may be varied. There is no reason for you to assume that one will become an agnostic/atheist only if they felt jilted by what they considered god.

If things went the way you guys wanted it to be would you guys be typing what you are preaching now?

I like to think my life turned out pretty good, couldn't ask for anything more, and yet, here I am typing away -- no not preaching, that is for the religious.

See as a individual we have a right to our own thoughts but there is some amount of social responsibilty to make sure the new generation is not poisoned.

Oh dear Renu, I couldn't agree more. Parents bear a solemn responsibility to not fill our children with the poison of superstitions. Raise them to be able to think for themselves and decide for themselves. Don't fill them up with Rama, Krishna and such. Teach them about all faiths, and rationality also. Let them choose when they are able to on their own. Have faith in the kids to make the right choice for themselves.

I am sure a lot of people at this point will tell me what I already know, this is not practical, ain't going to happen. True, children will continue to be treated as vessels into which their parents pour their poison (h/t Salman Rushdie)

Do you think you are doing society a favor?

No, I will never presume any such thing. But, I think if I stay silent while there is an onslaught of superstitions spread in the name of spirituality I cannot simply stay silent. Even though it often seems like emptying the ocean using a teaspoon, I want to do my bit.

Ask yourself? is this what you want to leave behind?

Absolutely! If I can get one person to think about these things, that would be worth the effort.

And i am always so amazed how people who have unproven theories are so cock sure of what they say?

Renu, do you know what agnosticism means? The very definition of it is, in the absence of definite knowledge about a subject, we cannot be definitive of it at all. Does this sound like "cock sure" about unproven theory. Contrast this with the religiously faithful, no proof exists even for a single iota of their beliefs, yet none can be more sure than the faithful in their beliefs.

So homework for today is ask yourself..If things in life have gone the way you wnated it would you be writing all these today?

Renu, I know you are a deeply religious person. I respect that. I will never think of insulting your faith. Why is it hard for so many people to show the same respect to people like me who have come to the conclusion that it is all fairytale. Why should my disbelief be so much troubling that you have to accuse me that my position is not genuine?

I dont mind if i come across as rude today cos i feel we Hindus have spared the sword too long. thats why other religions behave better than us..cos they wont have their heads if they misbehaved.

I know where this anger is coming from, let it not be directed at us agnostics and atheists.

still friends sis?

 

[renuka]

Wow Renu, what do we have here, Jhansi Rani? From what you have written in this post I have to agree, you fear nothing

Since your challenge is generally addressed to "Agnostics", one could say I am one in a technical sense, I would like to jump in, hope you don't mind.


Dear Nara,


Are you not being "cock sure" here, the same level of surety you decry later, in a different context? Be that as it may, is there a rule that once you are ritualistic, then that is it, you can never abandon the ways of the faithful? For some this may come because of the reason you state, but for many others the reasons may be varied. There is no reason for you to assume that one will become an agnostic/atheist only if they felt jilted by what they considered god.

I like to think my life turned out pretty good, couldn't ask for anything more, and yet, here I am typing away -- no not preaching, that is for the religious.

Oh dear Renu, I couldn't agree more. Parents bear a solemn responsibility to not fill our children with the poison of superstitions. Raise them to be able to think for themselves and decide for themselves. Don't fill them up with Rama, Krishna and such. Teach them about all faiths, and rationality also. Let them choose when they are able to on their own. Have faith in the kids to make the right choice for themselves.

I am sure a lot of people at this point will tell me what I already know, this is not practical, ain't going to happen. True, children will continue to be treated as vessels into which their parents pour their poison (h/t Salman Rushdie)

No, I will never presume any such thing. But, I think if I stay silent while there is an onslaught of superstitions spread in the name of spirituality I cannot simply stay silent. Even though it often seems like emptying the ocean using a teaspoon, I want to do my bit.

Absolutely! If I can get one person to think about these things, that would be worth the effort.


Renu, do you know what agnosticism means? The very definition of it is, in the absence of definite knowledge about a subject, we cannot be definitive of it at all. Does this sound like "cock sure" about unproven theory. Contrast this with the religiously faithful, no proof exists even for a single iota of their beliefs, yet none can be more sure than the faithful in their beliefs.

Renu, I know you are a deeply religious person. I respect that. I will never think of insulting your faith. Why is it hard for so many people to show the same respect to people like me who have come to the conclusion that it is all fairytale. Why should my disbelief be so much troubling that you have to accuse me that my position is not genuine?

I know where this anger is coming from, let it not be directed at us agnostics and atheists.

still friends sis?

Dear Nara,

I am enemy of none. I am not troubled by anyones disbelieves. I am not trying to "convert" anyone to think like me.
Ok I am going to state the actual reason why I am backing off from anymore debates on this.
Not that I have no answers or afraid.I think you can see I fear nothing.
I am not a religous fanatic but I would rather call myself a spiritual person.In the past enough times I have been called "terrorist" becos of my firm standing which I take it as a complement rather than an insult.
You know my mode of thinking about God well.I am not the types who doesnt think like a zombie and charges with a sword.
Analysis of spirituality and different schools of thoughts as in the famous 6 schools of thought if you carefully read it does not degrade Iswara in anyway be it a Asthika or Nashtika school of thought.
It just debates on the principles of involvement of the Pratyaksham Aspect of Ishwara..If the Pratyaksham principle is present directly its called Asthika and if absent as in indirectly present its called Nasthika.
Some here feel our debates are for Pragyaan Vivardhanam and even compare it with the debates of the yester Yugas.
Now way any of our debates here can be equated with the 6 schools of thoughts and first and foremost none of us have reached that level where we are debating principles.

The ancient seers have reached the level after Tapas thru many births where they are able to debate purely on the Principles.Even then we get Adishankaraacharya who said "Nahi Nahi Rakshatin Dukren Karane" reminding us that intellectual debate isnt everything too.

So do you know where we stand right now? we are just debating Cock!! I dont know why in an assembly of males I tend to use that word often.
Ancient seers didnt click copy paste like what we do now.

Ok Ok I have to go back to what I wanted to type as why I backed off..
You might not believe me cos many dont believe in dreams and might think its my own hallucination.
Ok for the past 2 days I have been rather unhappy reading stuff here and on the 27th early morning I dreamt of my beloved Bhagawan Baba who was sitting in His Darshan hall and I was beside Him and He told me... "Internet Security..How to protect yourself from others online"

I knew what He meant...He still cared for me even though He had shed His mortal coil and He knew these baseless debates dont lead anywhere.
So since my orders had come from a Higher Level thats why I had replied in a thread that I wont be debating anymore.

So I am not replying any of your questions cos I care for my Bhagawan.


P.S The Constitution of India and its hate speech laws aim to prevent discord among its many ethnic and religious communities. The laws allow a citizen to seek the punishment of anyone who shows the citizen disrespect "on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or community or any other ground whatsoever". The laws specifically forbid anyone from outraging someone's "religious feelings". The laws allow authorities to prohibit any means of expression which someone finds insulting.


This is an open forum..so the above law should apply. If anyone wants to debate in a degrading manner please suggest this Forum be a closed Forum so that only members can read what is debated here.Right now if I type any members name in google the whole world can read what anyone writes.A mere disclaimer as in :All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website is not enough.

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Nara,

I am enemy of none. I am not troubled by anyones disbelieves. I am not trying to "convert" anyone to think like me.
Ok I am going to state the actual reason why I am backing off from anymore debates on this.
Not that I have no answers or afraid.I think you can see I fear nothing.
I am not a religous fanatic but I would rather call myself a spiritual person.In the past enough times I have been called "terrorist" becos of my firm standing which I take it as a complement rather than an insult.
You know my mode of thinking about God well.I am not the types who doesnt think like a zombie and charges with a sword.
Analysis of spirituality and different schools of thoughts as in the famous 6 schools of thought if you carefully read it does not degrade Iswara in anyway be it a Asthika or Nashtika school of thought.
It just debates on the principles of involvement of the Pratyaksham Aspect of Ishwara..If the Pratyaksham principle is present directly its called Asthika and if absent as in indirectly present its called Nasthika.
Some here feel our debates are for Pragyaan Vivardhanam and even compare it with the debates of the yester Yugas.
Now way any of our debates here can be equated with the 6 schools of thoughts and first and foremost none of us have reached that level where we are debating principles.

The ancient seers have reached the level after Tapas thru many births where they are able to debate purely on the Principles.Even then we get Adishankaraacharya who said "Nahi Nahi Rakshatin Dukren Karane" reminding us that intellectual debate isnt everything too.

So do you know where we stand right now? we are just debating Cock!! I dont know why in an assembly of males I tend to use that word often.
Ancient seers didnt click copy paste like what we do now.

Ok Ok I have to go back to what I wanted to type as why I backed off..
You might not believe me cos many dont believe in dreams and might think its my own hallucination.
Ok for the past 2 days I have been rather unhappy reading stuff here and on the 27th early morning I dreamt of my beloved Bhagawan Baba who was sitting in His Darshan hall and I was beside Him and He told me... "Internet Security..How to protect yourself from others online"

I knew what He meant...He still cared for me even though He had shed His mortal coil and He knew these baseless debates dont lead anywhere.
So since my orders had come from a Higher Level thats why I had replied in a thread that I wont be debating anymore.

So I am not replying any of your questions cos I care for my Bhagawan.


P.S The Constitution of India and its hate speech laws aim to prevent discord among its many ethnic and religious communities. The laws allow a citizen to seek the punishment of anyone who shows the citizen disrespect "on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or community or any other ground whatsoever". The laws specifically forbid anyone from outraging someone's "religious feelings". The laws allow authorities to prohibit any means of expression which someone finds insulting.


This is an open forum..so the above law should apply. If anyone wants to debate in a degrading manner please suggest this Forum be a closed Forum so that only members can read what is debated here.Right now if I type any members name in google the whole world can read what anyone writes.A mere disclaimer as in :All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website is not enough.

Dear Nara,

I am enemy of none. I am not troubled by anyones disbelieves. I am not trying to "convert" anyone to think like me.
Ok I am going to state the actual reason why I am backing off from anymore debates on this.
Not that I have no answers or afraid.I think you can see I fear nothing.
I am not a religous fanatic but I would rather call myself a spiritual person.In the past enough times I have been called terrorist becos of my firm standing which I take it as a complement rather than an insult.
You know my mode of thinking and God well.I am not the types who doesnt think like a zombie and charges with a sword.
Analysis of spirituality and different schools of thoughts as in the famous 6 schools of thought if you carefully read it does not degrade Iswara in anyway be it a Asthika or Nashtika school of thought.
It just debates on the principles of involvement of the Pratyaksham Aspect of Ishwara..If the Pratyaksham principle is present directly its called Asthika and if absent as in indirectly present its called Nasthika..Thats all.
Some here feel our debates are for Pragyaan Vivardhanam and even compare it with the debates of the yester Yugas.
Now way any of our debates here can be equated with the 6 schools of thoughts and first and foremost none of us have reached that level where we are debating principles.

The ancient seers have reached the level after Tapas thru many births where they are able to debate purely on the Principles.Even then we get Adishankaraacharya who said "Nahi Nahi Rakshatin Dukren Karane" reminding us that intellectual debate isnt everything too.

So do you know where we stand right now? we are just debating Cock!! I dont know why in an assembly of males I tend to use that word often.
Ancient seers didnt click copy paste like what we do now.

Ok Ok I have to go back to what I wanted to type as why I backed off..
You might not believe me cos many dont believe in dreams and might think its my own hallucination.
Ok for the past 2 days I have been rather unhappy reading stuff here and on the 27th early morning I dreamt of my beloved Bhagawan Baba who was sitting in His Darshan hall and I was beside Him and He told me... "Internet Security..How to protect yourself from others online"

I knew what He meant...He still cared for me even though He had shed His mortal coil and He knew these baseless debates dont lead anywhere.
So since my orders had come from a Higher Level thats why I had replied in a thread that I wont be debating anymore.

So I am not replying any of your questions cos I care for my Bhagawan.


P.S The Constitution of India and its hate speech laws aim to prevent discord among its many ethnic and religious communities. The laws allow a citizen to seek the punishment of anyone who shows the citizen disrespect "on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or community or any other ground whatsoever". The laws specifically forbid anyone from outraging someone's "religious feelings". The laws allow authorities to prohibit any means of expression which someone finds insulting.


This is an open forum..so the above law should apply. If anyone wants to debate in a degrading manner please suggest this Forum be a closed Forum so that only members can read what is debated here.Right now if I type any members name in google the whole world can read what anyone writes.A mere disclaimer as in :All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website is not enough.

Madam.
I have been observing this discussion between you and some others. I will say only this.
Cool down. In a world we will have all kinds of people. There are thousands of reasons for people to become atheists. It is only natural for some to become atheists. They will even try to advice others.When we see difficulties in life around us, some of us accept it as a part of life. Others react strongly to this. Let each person have his freedom to express. Such criticism is part of human evolution.

 

[renuka]

Madam.
I have been observing this discussion between you and some others. I will say only this.
Cool down. In a world we will have all kinds of people. There are thousands of reasons for people to become atheists. It is only natural for some to become atheists. They will even try to advice others.When we see difficulties in life around us, some of us accept it as a part of life. Others react strongly to this. Let each person have his freedom to express. Such criticism is part of human evolution.

Dear Subs,

I am not angry..dont get me wrong.As I said I am not againts any sect or any mode of thinking.I am not advicing others to be like me but its just that this an open Forum and there is some amount of social responsibility.Thats why I qouted the Constitution.
I am sure we can discuss differences of opinions in a more decent manner instead of wildly accusing Lord Krishna as a womanizer etc which was in other threads.
We can discuss the differences in opinons better than this.
Who gives who the authority to degrade Lord Krishna at a Personal level?
This is serious matter.I am not blindly saying He is God so dont question anything.After all isnt the Bhagavad Geeta the best Q and A ever seen?
Our whole religion is about Q and A only..but methods differ.
Anyone is free to be an atheist or agnostic but manner in which people write is important.
Just to add..I being a Non Brahmin do not interfere in any other discussions with regards to the community practises and cultural beliefs of the Tamil Brahmin community cos I have to respect differences too as my way of thinking does differ and i prefer sticking to the principles of Hinduism as in its essences form.
For example I do not subscribe to Pitr Karya methods but I wont degrade those who do it cos thats the beauty of our religion each to its own. I do have my differences too but I dont degrade anything.

Its safer if this Forum is a closed Forum where only members can read what is written here.
And sometimes its not anger that makes us react its just making a point clear..believe me i didnt have anger in my mind when i wrote any of these post.It might have come across as anger charged and even "violent" to most but I just did what i had to do and as I had stated clearly I rest my case.

thank you anyway for your concern.
love
renu

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Subs,

I am not angry..dont get me wrong.As I said I am not againts any sect or any mode of thinking.I am not advicing others to be like me but its just that this an open Forum and there is some amount of social responsibility.Thats why I qouted the Constitution.
I am sure we can discuss differences of opinions in a more decent manner instead of wildly accusing Lord Krishna as a womanizer etc which was in other threads.
We can discuss the differences in opinons better than this.
Who gives who the authority to degrade Lord Krishna at a Personal level?
This is serious matter.I am not blindly saying He is God so dont question anything.After all isnt the Bhagavad Geeta the best Q and A ever seen?
Our whole religion is about Q and A only..but methods differ.
Anyone is free to be an atheist or agnostic but manner in which people write is important.
Just to add..I being a Non Brahmin do not interfere is any other discussions with regards to the community practises and cultural beliefs of the Tamil Brahmin community cos I have to respect differences too as my way of thinking does differ and i prefer sticking to the principles of Hinduism as in its essences form.
For example I do not subscribe to Pitr Karya methods but I wont degrade those who do it cos thats the beauty of our religion each to its own. I do have my differences too but I dont degrade anything.

Its safer if this Forum is a closed Forum where only members can read what is written here.
And sometimes its not anger that makes us react its just making a point clear..believe me i didnt have anger in my mind when i wrote any of these post.It might have come across as anger charged and even "violent" to most but I just did what i had to do and as I had stated clearly I rest my case.

thank you anyway for your concern.
love
renu

I am also not an atheist, I also have a limit beyond which I feel hurt. But let me give you an example from board meetings. When there are major failures, people are after each other's neck literally. It is worse there, much worse. Only language is civilized but venom is more. Some react sharply. Some are silent - PV Narasimha rao in the making? Some put their views without appearing to loose their cool. They dont give up their stand yet everyone admires their coolness about it all. There is no prize for guessing who is the real winner in such meetings. Let us all be like this category of people. If others are not like that they will not be the winners. So please post, I will support your right to express.

 

[renuka]

I am also not an atheist, I also have a limit beyond which I feel hurt. But let me give you an example from board meetings. When there are major failures, people are after each other's neck literally. It is worse there, much worse. Only language is civilized but venom is more. Some react sharply. Some are silent - PV Narasimha rao in the making? Some put their views without appearing to loose their cool. They dont give up their stand yet everyone admires their coolness about it all. There is no prize for guessing who is the real winner in such meetings. Let us all be like this category of people. If others are not like that they will not be the winners. So please post, I will support your right to express.

Dear Subs,

Thank You,

Love
renu

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

P.S The Constitution of India and its hate speech laws aim to prevent discord among its many ethnic and religious communities. The laws allow a citizen to seek the punishment of anyone who shows the citizen disrespect "on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or community or any other ground whatsoever". The laws specifically forbid anyone from outraging someone's "religious feelings". The laws allow authorities to prohibit any means of expression which someone finds insulting.


This is an open forum..so the above law should apply. If anyone wants to debate in a degrading manner please suggest this Forum be a closed Forum so that only members can read what is debated here.Right now if I type any members name in google the whole world can read what anyone writes.A mere disclaimer as in :All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website is not enough.

Under what head are you claiming protection? Religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or community? If this is true then all the internet forums have to be closed down. By the way this forum and all other forums expect all the members to follow certain rules. Threatening the other members is not tolerated in any forum.

You must have heard of Dr. Kovoor and the rationalist associations. No one could sue them for wounding religious feelings.

The members have the right to question any of the existing beliefs. Please go through the different threads. You will understand.

We have a specific category "Philosophy and scriptures"

The forum note reads as under:

This section questions our current understanding of scriptures and existing
practices. If you absolutely believe that our current ways are supreme and that
traditions should not be questioned in any way this is NOT the thread for you.
There is another thread in the Customs and Traditions section.

This is under General discussions.

 

[renuka]

Under what head are you claiming protection? Religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or community? If this is true then all the internet forums have to be closed down. By the way this forum and all other forums expect all the members to follow certain rules. Threatening the other members is not tolerated in any forum.

You must have heard of Dr. Kovoor and the rationalist associations. No one could sue them for wounding religious feelings.

The members have the right to question any of the existing beliefs. Please go through the different threads. You will understand.

We have a specific category "Philosophy and scriptures"

The forum note reads as under:


This is under General discussions.

This is not a Threat..Its just a fact.Who cares about Abraham Kovoor.I am not taking about him here.Why do you guys need others for support? Now see you need Abraham Kovoor.
Have balls!!! stand up using your own stuff and subtances. I was using valid info from your constitution and not some half baked guys thoughts.

I dont tolerate such talk from you!!! I have made myself clear and that reply wasnt to you.It was to Nara if you didnt like it i cant help it.

Anyway the biggest mistake I made is coming back to this Forum so I am going to heed Bhagawans advise and protect myself.

I will not be replying anymore post. So type what ever you want say what ever you want.I give a damn cos at least I had balls to stand up for what i thought and not lean on any Abraham Kovoor for support.
Moderator..excuse me for my language cos they deserve it!!!

 

[sangom]

Under what head are you claiming protection? Religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or community? If this is true then all the internet forums have to be closed down. By the way this forum and all other forums expect all the members to follow certain rules. Threatening the other members is not tolerated in any forum.

You must have heard of Dr. Kovoor and the rationalist associations. No one could sue them for wounding religious feelings.

The members have the right to question any of the existing beliefs. Please go through the different threads. You will understand.

We have a specific category "Philosophy and scriptures"

The forum note reads as under:


This is under General discussions.

Shri Iniyan,

Well said and appropriately so. I felt it was rather not worth any sane suggestion to Smt. Renuka because IMO she is "cock sure" of what is right and what is not for the whole world. There is a saying in Malayalam which means approximately "when a buffalo comes charging, there is no point in reciting veda". (Shri KRS, this is a proverb and I am by no means, equating Smt. Renuka to a charging buffalo or name-calling.) Best thing is to keep quiet; as it is said "பொறுத்தார் பூமி ஆழ்வார்" and secondly, I suppose she is just my children's age and much of life is before her. How I or Nara see the world will be different from how she looks at it.

 

[suraju06]

Tendulkar has every reason to be happy when he hits a century. For that matter everyone has every reason to be happy with Tendulkar and a good game of cricket.
How can one compare Tendulkar's achievements with a bunch of people who claim to be superior merely for birth ? Simply because the dharma-shastras brackets people by birth in a grading system ?

1)A bunch of people-I presume you are referring to brahmins by this.
2)Merely by birth-I am sure you will accept that the "bunch of people" do not claim their superiority on the basis of birth alone.
3)Dharma Shastras-Whether these Sastras say or not we have this "bunch of people" existing in this world in our society for good or bad. It is a given situation.

If you accept these three are derivatives of what you have said in your post please read further. Otherwise please leave it and be happy with your pet belief system.

Just as an individual has the right to feel on top of the world (as admitted by you) a group also has the same right if it has a consistent record of achievements. That is what I said. As long as this "bunch" as you would call it and group as I would call it, remains identifiable in this country(in the midst of a plethora of groups like mudalis, pillais,naickers,gounders,reddys,kapus,kurmis,nadars,marathas,goudas,thevars,bhumihars etc. etc. etc.,,) those who are members of this group will have the right to be proud of their achievements(as your Tendulkar and his fans have the right to be proud). It is not as if this "bunch" exists as a solitary island in a sea of egalitarian tranquility. However hard you and people of your ilk try to make it out that way, the truth will certainly stare at you and trouble you when you are called to answer your conscience.

Well, there is nothing wrong with self-glorification (and vanity), but why does it have to come at the cost of degrading other people (merely for their birth)?

When I say Dr Sir C.V.Raman is a nobel laureate and he was born in a brahmin family where do I degrade other people? As you have yourself admitted that the "bunch" exists, I am merely saying he hails from that "bunch". If you read between lines there is something seriously wrong with you which cries for treatment and cure.I have given only one example. I can give you a list and it will be a who is who of prominent Indians. Dont mistake me. This is genuine pride and not superiority complex. The former one is harmless and productive, while the later is intrusive and harmful.

Each time i see this discussion on superiority and inferiority am baffled. Why cannot people be considered EQUAL in the eyes of God? Why does it have to be only either "superior"" or "inferior" ?

God created all. Superiority and inferiority (though I have used the term superiority and inferiority earlier to indicare the genuine pride, I understand it can be taken out of context and when that happens the meaning can give chauvinistic overtones) comes later and people become "bunches" because the society finds it comfortable with that kind of arrangement. The problem comes only when one bunch among them is isolated and made the villain by a few other bunches(not all). And people like you come and join the chorus and give a few தர்ம அடிகள் to the poor "bunch" that is hit and is down.

Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Raju,

Like you I grew up with superiority complex as a child.As I became more matured I read a little bit more , seen more things in life. Superiority complex is never good- humility is best. Culture to some people is important. Whoever is proud has stopped knowledge growth. It is impractical to expect people born in another culture to accept your culture after marriage. If you dont want to compromise culture marry within your group. Do it silently. If somebody is different you may give polite suggestions.
Leave it there.

A river when it flows , divides into many streams. Same with humans. Accept difference follow your practices if you like it. Understand that like river humans will divide and may be even join later. It is natural , my experience has taught. Joining after separation is also possible.

My uncle in those days did a major revolution by marrying out of caste. Imagine in sixties. Life comes a full circle , his daughter married a brahmin- Love marriage. But she is bringing a mixed culture in the family. Good or bad, it is individual view.

When I married outside my subcaste the same things came then superiority-inferiority eva-ava. People who made fun of my inter-subcaste marriage , today they are far more away from where my family is in terms of culture. Same thing can be true in inter-caste , inter-religious etc. Lot of people will give lots of examples so I will not repeat. I never teach superiority to younger generation. They are within the caste until now. I accept the possibility that it may not always happen. I dont know and I will not worry.

பராசரும் ஜாதி விட்டு கல்யாணம் பண்ணிண்டு தான மஹா ரிஷி வியாசர் பொறந்தார் ?

As far as I am concerned , let us do what we feel is right. Let us think practically depending on our circumstance and the elders in the family. Practical living is the survival key word of a human being. Live, think and adapt.

Dear Subbudu,

I have nothing to say as you are on a different band-width altogether. Thank you.
Cheers.

 

[subbudu1]

1)A bunch of people-I presume you are referring to brahmins by this.
2)Merely by birth-I am sure you will accept that the "bunch of people" do not claim their superiority on the basis of birth alone.
3)Dharma Shastras-Whether these Sastras say or not we have this "bunch of people" existing in this world in our society for good or bad. It is a given situation.

If you accept these three are derivatives of what you have said in your post please read further. Otherwise please leave it and be happy with your pet belief system.

Just as an individual has the right to feel on top of the world (as admitted by you) a group also has the same right if it has a consistent record of achievements. That is what I said. As long as this "bunch" as you would call it and group as I would call it, remains identifiable in this country(in the midst of a plethora of groups like mudalis, pillais,naickers,gounders,reddys,kapus,kurmis,nadars,marathas,goudas,thevars,bhumihars etc. etc. etc.,,) those who are members of this group will have the right to be proud of their achievements(as your Tendulkar and his fans have the right to be proud). It is not as if this "bunch" exists as a solitary island in a sea of egalitarian tranquility. However hard you and people of your ilk try to make it out that way, the truth will certainly stare at you and trouble you when you are called to answer your conscience.



When I say Dr Sir C.V.Raman is a nobel laureate and he was born in a brahmin family where do I degrade other people? As you have yourself admitted that the "bunch" exists, I am merely saying he hails from that "bunch". If you read between lines there is something seriously wrong with you which cries for treatment and cure.I have given only one example. I can give you a list and it will be a who is who of prominent Indians. Dont mistake me. This is genuine pride and not superiority complex. The former one is harmless and productive, while the later is intrusive and harmful.



God created all. Superiority and inferiority (though I have used the term superiority and inferiority earlier to indicare the genuine pride, I understand it can be taken out of context and when that happens the meaning can give chauvinistic overtones) comes later and people become "bunches" because the society finds it comfortable with that kind of arrangement. The problem comes only when one bunch among them is isolated and made the villain by a few other bunches(not all). And people like you come and join the chorus and give a few தர்ம அடிகள் to the poor "bunch" that is hit and is down.

Cheers.

1)A bunch of people-I presume you are referring to brahmins by this.
2)Merely by birth-I am sure you will accept that the "bunch of people" do not claim their superiority on the basis of birth alone.
3)Dharma Shastras-Whether these Sastras say or not we have this "bunch of people" existing in this world in our society for good or bad. It is a given situation.

If you accept these three are derivatives of what you have said in your post please read further. Otherwise please leave it and be happy with your pet belief system.

Just as an individual has the right to feel on top of the world (as admitted by you) a group also has the same right if it has a consistent record of achievements. That is what I said. As long as this "bunch" as you would call it and group as I would call it, remains identifiable in this country(in the midst of a plethora of groups like mudalis, pillais,naickers,gounders,reddys,kapus,kurmis,nadars,marathas,goudas,thevars,bhumihars etc. etc. etc.,,) those who are members of this group will have the right to be proud of their achievements(as your Tendulkar and his fans have the right to be proud). It is not as if this "bunch" exists as a solitary island in a sea of egalitarian tranquility. However hard you and people of your ilk try to make it out that way, the truth will certainly stare at you and trouble you when you are called to answer your conscience.



When I say Dr Sir C.V.Raman is a nobel laureate and he was born in a brahmin family where do I degrade other people? As you have yourself admitted that the "bunch" exists, I am merely saying he hails from that "bunch". If you read between lines there is something seriously wrong with you which cries for treatment and cure.I have given only one example. I can give you a list and it will be a who is who of prominent Indians. Dont mistake me. This is genuine pride and not superiority complex. The former one is harmless and productive, while the later is intrusive and harmful.



God created all. Superiority and inferiority comes later and people become "bunches" because the society finds it comfortable with that kind of arrangement. The problem comes only when one bunch among them is isolated and made the villain by a few other bunches(not all). And people like you come and join the chorus and give a few தர்ம அடிகள் to the poor "bunch" that is hit and is down.

Cheers.

Dear Raju,
Sometimes even words can hurt another person very badly. We have all grown up from the times when our community members used to say Soodra Po Po. If it is office be more friendly with brahmins. If it is a temple show staring looks at NBs. If it is home ban non brahmins from hall kitchen and puja rooms. Our community has not always been innocent. I dont support periyar. But there were many in our community who were corrupt or arrogant. We can take pride in our achievements. But be prepared to feel ashamed about wrong-doers among us. Best attitude is to be humble. Like tyagaraja who always felt humble. Like Yogi Ramsarat Kumar, who always called himself a beggar. Then if you are humble NBs will also respect you. Why they will go after some hate mongers ?

Let us give up the victim mentality. It is a sign of weakness - whether he is a dalit or he is a brahmin.

 

[suraju06]

Shri Raju,

Am keen to know this from a scientist as yourself -- what are the scientific evidences which say that genes are affected due to caste-culture ?

Regards.

Dear HH,
First I am eager to know what is this "caste-culture" you are talking about. As it comes from a scientist like you I am keen to know what it is.
Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Raju,
Sometimes even words can hurt another person very badly. We have all grown up from the times when our community members used to say Soodra Po Po. If it is office be more friendly with brahmins. If it is a temple show staring looks at NBs. If it is home ban non brahmins from hall kitchen and puja rooms. Our community has not always been innocent. I dont support periyar. But there were many in our community who were corrupt or arrogant. We can take pride in our achievements. But be prepared to feel ashamed about wrong-doers among us. Best attitude is to be humble. Like tyagaraja who always felt humble. Like Yogi Ramsarat Kumar, who always called himself a beggar. Then if you are humble NBs will also respect you. Why they will go after some hate mongers ?

Let us give up the victim mentality. It is a sign of weakness - whether he is a dalit or he is a brahmin.

Dear Mr. Subbudu,
You have not at all understood the line of arguments. Thank you for your advices. As I said you are in a different bandwidth. Thank you.
Cheers.

 

[happyhindu]

1)A bunch of people-I presume you are referring to brahmins by this.
2)Merely by birth-I am sure you will accept that the "bunch of people" do not claim their superiority on the basis of birth alone.
3)Dharma Shastras-Whether these Sastras say or not we have this "bunch of people" existing in this world in our society for good or bad. It is a given situation.

If you accept these three are derivatives of what you have said in your post please read further. Otherwise please leave it and be happy with your pet belief system.

Just as an individual has the right to feel on top of the world (as admitted by you) a group also has the same right if it has a consistent record of achievements. That is what I said. As long as this "bunch" as you would call it and group as I would call it, remains identifiable in this country(in the midst of a plethora of groups like mudalis, pillais,naickers,gounders,reddys,kapus,kurmis,nadars,marathas,goudas,thevars,bhumihars etc. etc. etc.,,) those who are members of this group will have the right to be proud of their achievements(as your Tendulkar and his fans have the right to be proud). It is not as if this "bunch" exists as a solitary island in a sea of egalitarian tranquility. However hard you and people of your ilk try to make it out that way, the truth will certainly stare at you and trouble you when you are called to answer your conscience.



When I say Dr Sir C.V.Raman is a nobel laureate and he was born in a brahmin family where do I degrade other people? As you have yourself admitted that the "bunch" exists, I am merely saying he hails from that "bunch". If you read between lines there is something seriously wrong with you which cries for treatment and cure.I have given only one example. I can give you a list and it will be a who is who of prominent Indians. Dont mistake me. This is genuine pride and not superiority complex. The former one is harmless and productive, while the later is intrusive and harmful.



God created all. Superiority and inferiority (though I have used the term superiority and inferiority earlier to indicare the genuine pride, I understand it can be taken out of context and when that happens the meaning can give chauvinistic overtones) comes later and people become "bunches" because the society finds it comfortable with that kind of arrangement. The problem comes only when one bunch among them is isolated and made the villain by a few other bunches(not all). And people like you come and join the chorus and give a few தர்ம அடிகள் to the poor "bunch" that is hit and is down.

Cheers.

Raju,

The bunch of people i was referring to are specifically people who on this forum claim to be brahmins and superior by birth. How can anyone be a brahmin by birth, that is my first question. Secondly, how can anyone be proud for something they never acheived themselves? So first please resolve who is a brahmin, and are present-day 'brahmins' the descendents of vedic seers (as they claim to be). Also please let me know what is the consistent record of achievements which present-day 'claimants of brahminhood' have achieved. Instead of going far, lets start with your caste.

So sir as a Vadagalai Iyengar, please can you tell me how, when and where did your "caste" originate? If people in your immediate ancestry followed vishistadvaita philosophy, do they become brahmins? If not, How did they first become 'brahmins' (that is, how did they become brahmins before they started following a philosophy) ? If a dialogue were to start on these grounds, I think i will end up entering forbidden territory. So right before i start, i wud be keen to have the moderator's approval and presence so that KRS ji may delete anything inappropriate i might end up saying.

Also, Raju sir there is a question pending for you at post # 50 of this thread here: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/6390-intercaste-marriages-5.html#post77440

Regards.

 

[renuka]

Dear Moderator,
i had made it clear in my post yesterday that i wont be debating on this and actually stated today the reason also.
My long post was addressed to Nara cos he had asked me a few questions and whatever i wrote to him i know he will be able to understand and reply in a less personal attack manner.
Nara doesnt call names..He debates on principles that may differ thats all.So i have respect for him and i wrote that post for him and you know if i want to call anyone names I do so..like i said "have balls" and not write about some, zombie, bull or bison or a terrorist and then put a disclaimer..Thats why i say many lack guts!!

I am not a young chick who hasnt seen the world.I am old enough aged 41.

Anyway i know i am wasting my time here.

I do see the world differently from others cos at my age I havent got cataract yet and when I do get cataract eventually I will understand how some see the world but i wont make others blind with my lack of "sight".

I am only apologizing to you if i broke any Forum Rules.
Dear Srimathi Renu Ji,
I know you have been under stress because of Sri Sai Baba leaving this world. So, in your responses I see some frustration and anger. I think the elders in this Forum (like me who have cataracts ) would understand that your aim is never to hurt others. Please do not leave the Forum on this account of arguments with those other than Professor Nara Ji.

Also I would like to post here, for your ears only this: When Ramana Maharishi was reaching the end of His life, He told His devotees:" Why are you sad? Where am I going? I will always be here". Please take care. - KRS



renu