Brahmin Girls Marrying (Attracted towards) NB Boys

[kunjuppu]

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Sorry for dropping abruptly. Can anyone say what an IC marriage means? I'm asking this because I see the phrase in almost all the posts....

marraige between castes. in this particular thread , the focus is on tambram girls with hindu non brahmin boys.

we have kept out of scope tambram boys, but it is felt that one of the reasons, that tambram boys are finding it hard to get mates, is that a significant number of tambram girls appear to open and welcome marriage to non tambram hindus, with or without parental approval.

the cause of concern among some posters is that if this trend continues, it will be the ultimate destruction of the tambram way of life.

ofcourse, folks like me utterly disagree to this opposition.

to me a hindu is a hindu is a hindu. i consider all of them, including dalits, as my fellow religonists, and do not feel any different towards any particular caste.

to me caste is a tribal grouping, and in the context of rapid urbanization and intermixing, future castes will be along the lines of the guilds of europe - ie groups of cobblers, ironmongers, jewllers except it will groups of IT professionals, engineers, doctors. ie people group due likes and anthasthu - very much similar to your claim in another thread that there were only fluid varnas in the vedic age and not rigid castes like today.

whatever it may, i dream of hindus not differentiating each other based on caste, and this recent trend in tamil nadu, to me is a delightful progress.

this has been my conviction for over 45 years now and this feeling seems to getting only firmer and stronger the older i get.

what i feel sharply missing in this thread, is some perspectives from those, particularly tambram girls or NB boys married to them - we need both success and failure stories.

hope this answers your query and gives some perspective.

 

[kunjuppu]

@kunjuppu sir..
Do you think, i have not experienced this? .. the reason why i am so strong in what i say is because, i realised everything first hand..

senthil,

if you don't mind, i think, atleast between two of us, we have covered the full spectrum, atleast from my viewpoint. so if i do not directly respond to any further posts from you, please understand. i will do so, only if there i detect something new.

hope that is ok with you. thank you for your very cohesive arguements, well put and presented, but (ofcourse what do you expect?) unconvincing to me. thanks again.

ps..one kutty question if you don't mind: what did you do when you fell in with the tambram girl? suppressed your feelings and went by way of the caste? ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR? did it have a bollywood ending

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Thanks to VR

dear Mr. Iyyarooraan, (reply to # 867 )
Please read # 884.
Even i wish that all the world should live in harmony , happiness and peace.
with best wishes,
V.R.

Thank u, never misunderstood. the media is to express ourselves. Have the best

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

dear Mr. Iyyarooraan,

Replies seem to come in so fast that it is difficult to keep track of the thread- unless we read all the posts zealously.

So there is a scope for misunderstanding and wrong projections.

I thought I owed an explanation -in case anybody has taken the comment on himself and started feeling hurt!

We all try to spread good will-by creating awareness-based on our personal experiences.

with warm regards,
V.R.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Senthil,

The brahmin boys from traditional family does not have that skill.. even if they have, they were brought up in a well mannered way, that they will not stoop such low..
Same with other castes which follow high standards of living.. eg: Pillais, mudaliyars etc..

Greetings Sir. Brahmin boys did attract other caste girls. But in those days when I was young, most non-brahmin girls got married young when the brahmin boys were pursuing higher studies. So, in most cases, it was not just comfortable. By the way, brahmin boys choosin non-brahmin girls is not stooping low. I have seen 'Cleopatras' minding water-buffalos (!) in my village; 'stop dead beauties' in the Harijan colonies. One should be fortunate to get such beauties, in my opinion.

Funny enough, I found Gounder people and Harijans more compatible with Brahmins (in this case, Iyengars; I grew up in a Iyengar family). I found Gounder ladies keen on perfection; after my grand mother, it used to be the Gounder maid who would usually admonish me on 'aacharam'! (She was treated as part of the family. She used to go to every room except the bed room and pooja room). Of course, all the other Gounder families too were highly organised. In the case of Harijans, I found them very polite and compassionate.

There is huge social stigma for the parents if their son/daughter married inter-caste. In every social gathering, someone would make fun of the parents for the inter-caste marriage. Not all the parents can take up such stress. That is one of the main reason for the parents worry about their children falling in love with someone from a different caste. Such dilemmas are not present parents living in western countries.

But, if it is arranged by the parents, ICM's are perfectly alright. The parents always can and will defend such unions. Mostly, the parents would be close friends and the marriage would be an extension of friendship.

Well, this is a complicated subject. Each case is different. There are merits and demerits in the whole process. There is more to discuss.

Cheers!

 

[hoover]

and demonising the parents who oppose ic marriages is also practiced in psudo liberal societies. sometimes up to those levels that families have to face hardships. recent example in nirupama pathak murder case.
It is right of parents esp. brahmin to intervene in affairs of their children and marital matters. because atleast in india it is not govt. who feeds girls, educates them. brahmin get no help for feeding their girls and educating them so parents have full right to decide the marital matters. Only thing these days is happening is elders of brahmin community are less concerned about marriages of their daughters and more concernd about their old age and bharat pakistan and so on. Lesser convictions mean more immorality.
Once ic marriages are accepted, I think there is no point in resisting th IR marriages. both are same.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Today I opened a website 'www.hinduismtoday.com. I read an article in the
magazine for oct/nov/dec2010 which was quite interesting.
Members may go through the above article.
The subject of the article is:
Educational Insight: Modern Matchmaking.
Hindu ways of arranging marriages, Traditional and Contemporary.
FromSATGURU SIVAYA SUBRAMANIA SWAMY's Living with Siva with excerpts from Kavitha Ramdya's Bollywood Weddings,Rajni Vaidhyanathan's"We Just Clicked" and the EIGHT STEPS OF THE TRADITIONA MATCHMAKING PROCESS
Parents of BOYS and GIRLS of marriageable age whether in INDIA OR ABROAD
should go through this article as the subject discussed deals with all types of marriages.

 

[sangom]

My view has been posted here much earlier; in my view the position of many of the tam-bram girls today has become anti-tam-bram. I do not know whether we can say it is due to a single cause. It is the sum total effect (result) of many factors, it appears. When a (tam-bram) girl gets bent upon marrying a NB boy or even non-Hindu boy, her parents can do very little today, because if she makes a police complaint, not only that she will have her way but the parents may face criminal charges!

I had earlier mentioned one or two such instances, as also brahmin marriages which broke down within a short time due to the obstinacy of the newly married girl on some flimsy points. Just today when I visited a relative, I came to know that another person (known to both of us) went to a tam-bram girl's house for பெண் பார்க்கல் (seeing the girl), the girl told the boy when they were talking in private that "those two devils" (meaning the boy's parents) should not come to their house (to be set up after marriage). The boy replied that in any case he did not want a devil as companion for life. When the boy subsequently faced the girl's parents with what their daughter had said to him, the parents did not have any reply. It seems they just kept quiet.

I am giving this example just to show that the situation today is very complicated for the tam-bram girls' parents also, but I do not justify uncivilized behaviour, whether from the boy or the girl.

It is my feeling from the little interaction I have with other communities, that if a girl in their community marries some one against their approval, the parents of the girl and their close relatives distance completely from her and that causes some caution to be exercised by the girls also as to how far she can carry her "personal freedom" for "falling in love" and in deciding whom she may chose to marry. I had a friend -no more now-(tam-bram) who made it a principle not to attend brahmin icms and also stopped visiting the houses of the tam-bram parents (even if relatives) who consent to the icm of their children and accept the NB spouse. He used to tell that plainly also. Perhaps that may be an effective "non-cooperation" weapon if many will adopt it. But will it correct the tam-bram community or whether such persons only will get completely marginalized, I can't say.

 

[hoover]

brahvo,
my best wishes to the person atleaste some of our community members are keeping themselves away from this way of eternal disgrace.
the para four is vary good. I always say and will keep saying that acceptance is encouragement and promotion. all brahmin should join that good man.

 

[srikrish85]

Hoover Sahib, if my inference is right then IR marriages means Inter-Religious Marriages.

Quote: Once IC marriages are accepted, I think there is no point in resisting the IR marriages. both are same.

Well... IR marriages are not equal to IC marriages...

Because... if we do IC marriage then, some practices may differ but the base, concept such as Dharma, Reincarnation, Paap, Punya, etc... will be the same. Some new festivals will be celebrated i.e. like some noonbu, Koozh uthardhu, etc.

IMHO the marriages between Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains and Ayyavazhis might not make a starking difference.

But inter marriages between Dharmic Religious people and Abrahamic Religious People have a striking difference.

You see...
In dharmic religions, all are cyclical.

The theologies are also more or less same.

I have Jain friend, according to Jains Bhagwan Ram is a gyaani. So they do not put a full stop to the worship of Ram. She herself worships Ganesh, Ram and Krishan. The same also goes to Buddhists.

In Ayyavazhi, Ayya Vaikuntar is an Avtar of Bhagwan Vishnu. So they will not object if either the bride or groom worship Ram, Krishan or any other god from our Pantheon.

In Sikhism, well... I see a lot of Sikhs visiting Hindu Temples ( I even saw a sikh family visiting Kapaleeshwarar kovil and doing their worship). Yearly twice they go to Vaishno Devi temple.

So... now consider the inter marriage between a person from Indian religion and a Person from... say Islam.

1) It will be predicament for the Mussalmaan to correct the kaffirs.
2) Since his/her spouse is a kaffir he/she will try to influence the other regarding the worship of Guru Granth, Ram, Adinath or Buddha.
4) According to them, theirs is the true path and the other kaffirs will possess a one-way ticket to hell.
5) To them the death puts a full stop to life (i.e. no rebirth).
6) The Abrahamic religions are predatory religions. They will not tolerate the presence of a non-believer. So the spouse will be forced to convert. Otherwise thy will have to separate. Or there will be a Honor killing (the other will claim himself/herself as a Gazi).

So my point is IC marriage is not equal to IR marriage.

Oha Param Purakh Devaadidev, Bhagat Het Narsingh Bhev.

 

[senthil]

@sangom sir

I had earlier mentioned one or two such instances, as also brahmin marriages which broke down within a short time due to the obstinacy of the newly married girl on some flimsy points. Just today when I visited a relative, I came to know that another person (known to both of us) went to a tam-bram girl's house for பெண் பார்க்கல் (seeing the girl), the girl told the boy when they were talking in private that "those two devils" (meaning the boy's parents) should not come to their house (to be set up after marriage). The boy replied that in any case he did not want a devil as companion for life. When the boy subsequently faced the girl's parents with what their daughter had said to him, the parents did not have any reply. It seems they just kept quiet.

We have to understand one thing.. Such kind of ill-behaviours are result of only one thing.. the collapsing of communities..

Man uphold good virtues, moralities, good behaviour, only when he is part of community.. On the other case, if he is just an individual, is there any need for morality? Only his desires, selfish needs are primary.

Everyone in a community agrees on certain basic principles of life, and then follow it collectively, so that through peer encouragement, the entire community has this common practicces. Those who follow that community virtues are appreciated. Those who dont follow is condemned. Here there is no single authority like in Church of Islam to enforce any values.

And today, with collapse of community, the incentive to follow high virtues has been lost. Everyone knows, it needs more effort and self-discipline to follow noble virtues in life. Today, when craze individualism is advocated as the only thing in life, why should an individual respect her/his parent or other elders?

I repeatedly say, that individualism, and individual rights is one of the ploy to destroy our society, where people will be put in an urban situation where no community to rely on, no culture to follow, and no need to have any virtues. as seen from that girl as described by sangom sir..

 

[sangom]

@sangom sir




We have to understand one thing.. Such kind of ill-behaviours are result of only one thing.. the collapsing of communities..

Man uphold good virtues, moralities, good behaviour, only when he is part of community.. On the other case, if he is just an individual, is there any need for morality? Only his desires, selfish needs are primary.

Everyone in a community agrees on certain basic principles of life, and then follow it collectively, so that through peer encouragement, the entire community has this common practicces. Those who follow that community virtues are appreciated. Those who dont follow is condemned. Here there is no single authority like in Church of Islam to enforce any values.

And today, with collapse of community, the incentive to follow high virtues has been lost. Everyone knows, it needs more effort and self-discipline to follow noble virtues in life. Today, when craze individualism is advocated as the only thing in life, why should an individual respect her/his parent or other elders?

I repeatedly say, that individualism, and individual rights is one of the ploy to destroy our society, where people will be put in an urban situation where no community to rely on, no culture to follow, and no need to have any virtues. as seen from that girl as described by sangom sir..

Shri Senthil,

Perhaps my post did not bring out clearly the point that the girl's parents were very gentle and amiable, and looked good to the boy's side and that was why they went to the second step (penn paarkkal). But the girl has somehow cultivated this sort of an attitude; it is not clear what are the inputs she got and from where. On hearing what their daughter had (the cheek) to say, from the boy, I understand the girl's parents were speechless and just kept quiet.

In cases like this even a strong and well-knit community feeling may not be able to change the attitudes, I think, especially because most media depict a "modern girl" in a similar mold and also clearly emphasize vividly the legal rights and protections a girl has today.

Just to make you up-to-date about these points, my close friend and relative's daughter, just after completing her studies, told her love for a Christian boy (very good-natured but has very little skill for a reasonable income). When the parents tried to dissuade her, the girl openly threatened her parents, saying that she would commit suicide after making a police complaint so that both (father and mother) could spend the rest of their lives in prison! The poor (not money-wise) parents got scared and had to give in.

The surprising thing is that their son (elder to this girl) earning fantastically (I would say, something like 2 to 2.5 lakhs per month) and spending half the time abroad in executive luxury, did not fall in love, married a girl from our caste as per customs, subsequently, and is happy!!

 

[sarasu]

sir,now a days everything s adultrated not only caste and communities but even the water we drink so we have to accept all those things.

Wat Ever Happens Life must Go On

cheer up and have broad thinking n not a narrow minded person

 

[senthil]

cheer up and have broad thinking n not a narrow minded person

Great.. a new kind of definition for broad thinking.. to accept adulteration and continue.. once again a fantastic logic.. so, let everyone accept corruption, hypocrisy, rape, murder, looting and everything.. because we should be broad minded..

 

[hoover]

srikrish, once pandoras box is opend it is meaningless to think if it is ic or ir. Those who adere to darma never take first step. once first step is taken then no defence remain to say that second step is forbidden. It is not point for people who accept darma. and for those who write caste no bar diet non veg etc. etc. what is difference in a non veg nb and a muslim and cristian. these people have a lot stuff to support their deeds and intellect to do that articulately, some of them say prabhu Ram was also one of the profets among the fourty profets of islam, some of them may define non believeres as atehist, and there are ideas of pap, punya and swarga in other religions to etc.etc. It is once weakness and surrender to passions to accept the first step, wheter he thinks it is right or wrong has no importance here second step is and inevitable part of the contract. Ic marriages is not even an issue in context of religious teaching. here many write about the freedom of girls to choose their own husband. what remains to say if a brahmin girl chooses a christian husband or a muslim husband. there are ir couples living like ic couples.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

points to be pondered by everyone:-

எப்படி வேண்டுமானாலும் வாழலாம் என்பது
மிருகங்களின் வாழ்க்கை சித்தாந்தம்.

இப்படித்தான் வாழவேண்டும் என்பது தான்
மனிதர்களின் சித்தாந்தமாக இருக்க வேண்டும்.

 

[kunjuppu]

I had earlier mentioned one or two such instances, as also brahmin marriages which broke down within a short time due to the obstinacy of the newly married girl on some flimsy points. Just today when I visited a relative, I came to know that another person (known to both of us) went to a tam-bram girl's house for பெண் பார்க்கல் (seeing the girl), the girl told the boy when they were talking in private that "those two devils" (meaning the boy's parents) should not come to their house (to be set up after marriage). The boy replied that in any case he did not want a devil as companion for life. When the boy subsequently faced the girl's parents with what their daughter had said to him, the parents did not have any reply. It seems they just kept quiet.

I .

dear sangom,

this description of the girl's behaviour sure brought a chuckle in me. pray let me go further.

it challenges my credibility, that on the very first introduction, and that too a brief few minutes together in a room, with the parents and relatives (probably) straining their ears to the emanating whispers over the hum of a fan or a/c. hope i got the situation right.

there are a lot more hidden messages in any conversation and when one hears through a third party, there can not only be an exaggeration factor, but a filtering one too.

i remember my own first 'private interview' with my to be wife. if at all anything, the overwhelming feeling is one of nervousness. some formalities are exchanged and broad based plans for the future.

ofcourse things have changed in these years, but even now, talking to my children, who do their own 'meeting', the most nervous time in any relationship, whether it fructifies or not, is the process of introduction.

sangom, is it possible, that the girl might have indicated her preference to live thani kudithanam (i support that), and a retort from the son 'are my parents devils that you want to shun them?'. which i would think is a reply that you can expect from one brought up and adhering to traditional expectations?

such lines of conversation, when transmitted twice, can take an utterly different twist, can't it?

another scenario: the girl probably has someone else in mind, and went through this ponn paarkkal process, just to comply with the parent's wishes. what better way of severing any hopes for further development than coming out with a pat answer, alluding to the boy's parents as devils?

this could probably explain the retiscience from the girl's parents. there could be some hidden smokes behind the fire? n'est pas?

i am really amazed at the mindset of most men here - we have tambram youngsters against ic marriages for their tambram sisters, tambram seniors with the same sentiments and further more persons other than tambram claiming to be friends of tambram with the same views. just amazed. i do not approve or disapprove, and i feel, that not one of us have moved an iota from our rigid stands.

in my youth (ie 1970s) it was the other way around. of my 4 closes tambram friends, and myself: only me and one other iyer boy married iyers. one iyer married a white american, he was an only son, and broke his parent's heart. the other iyer married a punjabi, ended up being a millionaire in chennai and supporting his parents till they died.

the fourth, an iyengar married a u.p. brahmin girl, was disowned by his family, the girl abused on each visit, including the grandchildren, left a ton of bitterness in him. the irony of it, just last year his sister's daughter in chennai married a mudaliar boy, and when he got the wedding invitation and warm note praising this boy, he did not know whether to laugh or cry!!

some more success stories

- this previous mentioned millionaire friends daughter married a christian boy, - a hindu home wedding was conducted followed by a grand reception in chennai

- another long time friend since youth, a kerala syrian christian, was lamenting that his son wanted to marry a marathi brahmin (2000 years of tradition wasted he wailed) - it ended up with his son marrying the marathi girl anyway, albeit in a church in chennai

- some older success stories: a sindhi friend married an iyengar girl some 30 years ago; he gave up meat, alcohol and converted to iyengar lifestyle. one daughter recently married an iyengar boy, arranged marriage

- in 1950s a young cousin widowed with a little girl, married a nair man younger than her, who took care of them both. the last i heard, the grown up girl married an iyer boy ...

and so life goes on. i find it difficult to generalize individual lives into confining rules. God has given us the power to think, rationalize, feel and above all compassion. humans, i believe have to listen to their hearts and tread life carefully to seek peace and contentment, whatever they understand this as.

where one wishes to find success and there is a will to 'make it happen', it will. my own way of dealing with children, is to give them sufficient knowledge to handle the future: a mate who has ambition, kindness, regard, affection, good prospects, ambiton, love of family and such. if such a person happen to be another tambram, all the glory for it. otherwise, that too, should be ok. they have our support. it is the human that counts, not the caste.

india, is a fabric of so many small mosaics which forever interact and every day keep the fabric of the country improving. it is upto each of us, to make choices - whether we flow with the times, and make ours and this a better society. or harken back to the increasingly dim but romanticized past or worse still a persecuted one.

thank you.

 

[senthil]

@kunjuppu sir..

Its not just tambram, or Non TB.. Pls speak to the older generations of dalit communities.. They too will oppose such kinds of marriages.. such was the mutual social recognition of the past.. (ie, in the so called period of brahminical oppression).. Please contrast that with the present day youths attitude?

as long as the communities were strong, the society was peaceful, stable, and wealth generating.. Today, the communities collapsed, individual desires taking precedence, and we can see, how everyone exploits every others.. This targetting of brahming women is one such..

On those days, even lower caste people will oppose their sons marrying brahmin women.. more because, they empathise with the difficulties the girl has to face, and dont want the brahmin girl to suffer in their family, which they had been used to..

ndia, is a fabric of so many small mosaics which forever interact and every day keep the fabric of the country improving.

Interaction is different from mixing..

 

[kunjuppu]

points to be pondered by everyone:-

எப்படி வேண்டுமானாலும் வாழலாம் என்பது
மிருகங்களின் வாழ்க்கை சித்தாந்தம்.

இப்படித்தான் வாழவேண்டும் என்பது தான்
மனிதர்களின் சித்தாந்தமாக இருக்க வேண்டும்.

visa,

please re-think about what you have written.

is it not animals who live by order for they know not any other? the lion today behaves the same as (i presume) lions thousand years ago, five thousand years ago. it does not have any different werewithals than its ancestors.

look at us humans. i doubt our own parents can relate to the changes, not only in 'ease of living' facilities of today, but to the revolution of the societal change all over the world.

i think, humans have the opportunity to improve their lot. we have the capacity to reflect on our issues of life objectively, and come to rational and sensible conclusions, even the answers might not be palatable to us.

i really miss the participation of tambram girls or even guys who have married into tambram girls. their perspectives would shed a lot of enlightenment and i am sure would make sense.

if at all anything, in ic marriages, there is a lot more at stake, and i can only imagine, that the couple would put in more effort, especially if there is ostracism. the best situation is ofcourse, is atleast one, if not both the parents embrace this, and provide support, and where needed.

so, dear visa, i think the reverse of your statement may be valid. the first stanza applying to humans, the second to animals? n'est pas?

 

[senthil]

points to be pondered by everyone:-

எப்படி வேண்டுமானாலும் வாழலாம் என்பது
மிருகங்களின் வாழ்க்கை சித்தாந்தம்.

இப்படித்தான் வாழவேண்டும் என்பது தான்
மனிதர்களின் சித்தாந்தமாக இருக்க வேண்டும்.

இப்படித்தான் இருக்க வேண்டும் என்ற நினைப்பே, பல பேருக்கு அடக்கு முறையாகத்தான் தெரிகிறது.. என்ன செய்ய..

the reason is the consumerist mentalities of the present age.. the present generation is trained to see everything as an object of consuming, and hence they want unlimited right to do that..

 

[hoover]

some facts,
1. once an carnivorous animal testes blood of human he finds it easy to kill humans and eat their flesh. case resembles to brahmin girls marriages. no resistance no pain.It needs much more courage to propose a girl from an nb communit for other nb boy so whats solution. target brahmin. its so easy already they are known these days as community with easy morals and easy virtues. If you are a well setteled and well earaning guaranteeing care of future in laws then it is most easy thing to do in marital affeirs. and forget to say there is a well established regiment of already ic and ir married brahmin girls and their nb husbands to end the sporadic resistance from so called radical brahmin who oppose the ic marriages, so cheers. It is OK signal now spread everywhere that brahmin accept the nb s in laws and the ic and ir marriages so keep on.
2.Tighers of sundarban are man eaters even today even when they are smaller in size. on the other hand man eating by tigers is nearabout a stop in hinterlands. One scool of thought says that In hinterland a large number of maneaters were killed by amateur hunters so the tigers learned to keep restrain in case of human being on the other hand in sundarbans due to least mobility hunters kept away and so tigers did not get the lesson. so even dumb animals change behaviour.
3. It is said that in kaliyuga even dogs will not remain loyal. and in Pandav Pratapa it is said that brahmins will trade their girls.
4. J.S. Mill says that if one voice is aginst the crowd it must be heard carefully as the only voice may also be true.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,

The animals live by their instincts. No wonder they don't change their behavior in thousands of years.

But man lives by his intelligence. He knows the right and wrong; the "Do"s and "Don't"s; the problems and the precautions to be taken.

So when some one says, anything goes as along as we are alive, it is not acceptable to me.

I believe that when the concept that anything goes is accepted, it will be only lead to more chaos.

World has enough problems already. We don't have to become liberal contributors, I suppose!

with warm regards,
V.R

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. Senthil,

மனிதனை மனிதனாக்குவது அவன்
சுயக்கட்டுப்பாடும், அறிவுத்திறனுமே.

இரண்டையுமே வேண்டாம் என்று நாம்
உதறிவிட்டால் பிறகு என்ன தான் மிஞ்சும்?

சுயக் கட்டுப்பாடு இல்லாத போது தான்
பிறருடைய அடக்குமுறை தேவை ஆகின்றது

அதற்கு அவசியமே இல்லாமல் நம்மால்
எளிதாகச் செய்துவிடமுடியுமே !

 

[sangom]

dear sangom,

this description of the girl's behaviour sure brought a chuckle in me. pray let me go further.

it challenges my credibility, that on the very first introduction, and that too a brief few minutes together in a room, with the parents and relatives (probably) straining their ears to the emanating whispers over the hum of a fan or a/c. hope i got the situation right.

there are a lot more hidden messages in any conversation and when one hears through a third party, there can not only be an exaggeration factor, but a filtering one too.

i remember my own first 'private interview' with my to be wife. if at all anything, the overwhelming feeling is one of nervousness. some formalities are exchanged and broad based plans for the future.

ofcourse things have changed in these years, but even now, talking to my children, who do their own 'meeting', the most nervous time in any relationship, whether it fructifies or not, is the process of introduction.

sangom, is it possible, that the girl might have indicated her preference to live thani kudithanam (i support that), and a retort from the son 'are my parents devils that you want to shun them?'. which i would think is a reply that you can expect from one brought up and adhering to traditional expectations?

such lines of conversation, when transmitted twice, can take an utterly different twist, can't it?

another scenario: the girl probably has someone else in mind, and went through this ponn paarkkal process, just to comply with the parent's wishes. what better way of severing any hopes for further development than coming out with a pat answer, alluding to the boy's parents as devils?

this could probably explain the retiscience from the girl's parents. there could be some hidden smokes behind the fire? n'est pas?

i am really amazed at the mindset of most men here - we have tambram youngsters against ic marriages for their tambram sisters, tambram seniors with the same sentiments and further more persons other than tambram claiming to be friends of tambram with the same views. just amazed. i do not approve or disapprove, and i feel, that not one of us have moved an iota from our rigid stands.

in my youth (ie 1970s) it was the other way around. of my 4 closes tambram friends, and myself: only me and one other iyer boy married iyers. one iyer married a white american, he was an only son, and broke his parent's heart. the other iyer married a punjabi, ended up being a millionaire in chennai and supporting his parents till they died.

the fourth, an iyengar married a u.p. brahmin girl, was disowned by his family, the girl abused on each visit, including the grandchildren, left a ton of bitterness in him. the irony of it, just last year his sister's daughter in chennai married a mudaliar boy, and when he got the wedding invitation and warm note praising this boy, he did not know whether to laugh or cry!!

some more success stories

- this previous mentioned millionaire friends daughter married a christian boy, - a hindu home wedding was conducted followed by a grand reception in chennai

- another long time friend since youth, a kerala syrian christian, was lamenting that his son wanted to marry a marathi brahmin (2000 years of tradition wasted he wailed) - it ended up with his son marrying the marathi girl anyway, albeit in a church in chennai

- some older success stories: a sindhi friend married an iyengar girl some 30 years ago; he gave up meat, alcohol and converted to iyengar lifestyle. one daughter recently married an iyengar boy, arranged marriage

- in 1950s a young cousin widowed with a little girl, married a nair man younger than her, who took care of them both. the last i heard, the grown up girl married an iyer boy ...

and so life goes on. i find it difficult to generalize individual lives into confining rules. God has given us the power to think, rationalize, feel and above all compassion. humans, i believe have to listen to their hearts and tread life carefully to seek peace and contentment, whatever they understand this as.

where one wishes to find success and there is a will to 'make it happen', it will. my own way of dealing with children, is to give them sufficient knowledge to handle the future: a mate who has ambition, kindness, regard, affection, good prospects, ambiton, love of family and such. if such a person happen to be another tambram, all the glory for it. otherwise, that too, should be ok. they have our support. it is the human that counts, not the caste.

india, is a fabric of so many small mosaics which forever interact and every day keep the fabric of the country improving. it is upto each of us, to make choices - whether we flow with the times, and make ours and this a better society. or harken back to the increasingly dim but romanticized past or worse still a persecuted one.

thank you.

Shri Kunjuppu,

While it is true that a news undergoes distortion when it passes through different persons, that may not hold good in the particular case cited by me. One is that it has just been through one person who is generally matter-of-fact and presents news truthfully (he held a very high position in the State Govt., and has no axe to grind in this bit of news) and two, the boy is working in Bangalore, parents have their house and eldest son here and the girl is in Chennai. So, as per our custom, the boy's parents living with the said boy "for life" is not there at all now; at best they might visit their son for some time and, as their age increases, this also will reduce. It was clear that the girl was against her in-laws coming even for a short visit.

Secondly, this is not the first such case. The specialty was the girl's language. The only son of my close friend and college mate went to see a girl in Mumbai two or three years ago. That girl also put the very same condition to him during their confidential talks but her language was unblemished. (it is no longer "the very first introduction, and that too a brief few minutes together in a room, with the parents and relatives (probably) straining their ears to the emanating whispers over the hum of a fan or a/c." as you imagine. The boy and the girl drive to a good hotel and spend an hour or two and then return, it seems.) I know two more cases in which after marriage, the wife threatened divorce if the husband does not make a தனிக்குடித்தனம் to which the in-laws should never come; the poor husband had to agree after one year of separation. In one case the m-i-l was no more even at the time of marriage and the problem was that the f-i-l, a religious man, insisted on ஆசாரம், மடி, etc. They live in the same city and fortunately, the wife allows the husband freedom to go alone and visit his parents!

I am not citing these examples to prove that icms will or will not be successful; it is only to support my statement that the parents of girls also have tough time in dealing with their daughters. Of course no such parent will come forward and publicize his dilemma.

Your hunch that the girl who used the "devil" epithet may be trying to ward off all other proposals brought by her parents but she could have done that without using the word, in which case the boy also might have not bothered to explain why he could not approve.

There was one case in which the girl told the boy plainly of her love to some one else and requested him to say "no" since she could not make her parents to see her side nor could she just fight with them. (Looks cinematic, but it happened in one case I know off.)

 

[sangom]

sir,now a days everything s adultrated not only caste and communities but even the water we drink so we have to accept all those things.

Wat Ever Happens Life must Go On

cheer up and have broad thinking n not a narrow minded person

Shri Surasu,

I don't get the meaning of your advice. I am not at all an involved party. Secondly what exactly do you mean by "so we have to accept all those things." Which things? The girls or their stipulations or both? Secondly why should I cheer up when I am not at all an affected party? Kindly think before you write something.

And, what is "broad thinking" in such matters according to you?