Brahmin Girls Marrying (Attracted towards) NB Boys

[kunjuppu]

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visa,

i think we mean the same thing. or perhaps not. that humans can make rules, and living by the rules is important. this also means to do what is right and do no wrong.

where we differ, maybe is what is 'wrong' in the case of icm.

to me icm is no 'wrong'. fundamentally i have a different way of looking at things than many others in this forum.

to me what is important is compatibilty, character, honesty, cheerfulness, prospects, mutual regard, affection and a whole bunch of positive factors.

i do not think that icm for just the sake of it, is sensible. but everything else betweeen two young people (or for that matter old ones too). when two people are truly in love, with their head on their shoulders, to deny them approval based on caste, to me appears unwanted cruelty.

i really do not know if all strictures, brainwashing since birth and community mores, will work when this strange chemistry between two folks who get attracted to each other, is at work. it has happened in the most traditional of families, as well as in more liberal ones. surprisingly, it does not mean that there is more opposition in the traditional families - sometimes in such cases, the wisdom of the elders transcends the immediate inconvenience of 'answering' the public.

visa, even if it be within the same caste, don't we look for family compatibility, anthasthu, prospects, and the very same similar factors that we go through in an arranged marriage.

even though i don't know any personally, i am quite sure, there have been instances of unions, where folks from the same village, community, caste and what not, not blessed by the parents for some reasons known only to them.

many a times such decisions are probably swayed by what i call the 'நாலு பேரு என்ன சொல்லுவாங்க' syndrome. in such cases, i wish parents would simply close their ears, and show big signs of public support. add to everything, the parents would have lifelong gratitude and appreciation of the parents.

to me, this appears to be a win-win situation, and what a shame when such opportunites are withered away due to age long prejudice, and perhaps, plain ignorance.

anyway, personally i am gratified that more and more of such unions are taking place. this appears to be a wave of the future, and just like in china (where till 60s or so, arranged marriages was the norm), we too may find that 'love' marriages become the norm and arranged marriage a rare wonder. time is on the side of the lovers...

 

[kunjuppu]

sangom,

there is no excuse for bad manners. under any circumstances. i a young lass in her twenties exhibits such behaviour, i have no suggestions or answers.

i will just shrug and move on. i will thank God that mercifully i have been spared from sharing my web with this tarantula

you hit upon another related topic. caring for the parents. at some point or the other, we all if unfortunate enough to still breather, may slip into our second childhood - except this one would be a sad one... but that is another post..maybe even another thread. thank you.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,

"There is nothing right or wrong. Only thinking makes it so."

You are right to that extent. Our traditions, customs and beliefs are bound to affect our judgments- in addition to that "naalu peru"-whom no one has ever been able to pin point!

Two young people (well matched, really in love, with their heads screwed well on their shoulders and feet firmly on the ground) should NOT be separated just for the sake of cast ism.

But how many of the love affairs we see qualify to fall in this clause?

Many of them are born out of mere physical attraction, thrill, to desire punish their controlling parents, to find the easy way out of the orthodox life or a life of poverty etc.

Do Chinese have as many castes and sub castes as we Indians do? I have no idea!

"The world loves lovers." You are right in saying that despite whatever we may feel or say or do-love marriages will be the order of the future.

I heard that Asian brides (especially Chinese, Japanese and Koreans) are much in demand in U.S.A, as they are "supposed to be obedient and remain petite for life" ( as opposed to the American wives)??

But you will know better since you have been a N.R.I for over 3 decades!

I think, as sensible people, we have to accept the inevitable at some point or the other.

So let things evolve as they are destined to evolve!

with warm regards,
V.R.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Marriages

In the good old days the marriage was between teenagers, girl early teen and boy second half of teen. There was no scope for any rift or disagreement between the wedded. If there was some, a 'Vadai' or 'Kamarkattu' would have ironed out that difference. Of course, the amiable parents-in-law were happy too. But now when a boy (or man!) marry a (girl) woman, both have a well settled Satan or Devil in their characters. Both have become the hardcore replica of their parents or some distant agnate of either side. The negative characters definitely would have taken deeper root in their personality or physique shooting out through the heel to the mother earth. So ideally, parents should not interfere as the suitors can themselves decide to make the 'mistake'. Marriage means meeting of two diverse 'animals'. What we desire is a union of amiable and agreeable minds which the community can provide. Of course, some cases go wrong so does it happen in marriages of choice. What happens to you is what is destined for you. Parents can and should guide their wards. If they can see reason in your stand, thank heavens; if they do not,Time will arbitrate who has been right and how much. Every parent should understand that sons and daughters are just accidental relatives. Ishwar Allah thero Naam Sabko Sanmati Dhey Bhagwan.

 

[sangom]

... Every parent should understand that sons and daughters are just accidental relatives.

A very correct advice for every one!

 

[hoover]

and so there is no need of police, court, education, rituals.realtions, relegion, ritual of marriage, and even cloths. let everything evolve as it is destined to be. let our fellow human beings free to enjoy test of drugs, prostitution and all so called bad things which old fools used to say so. afterall everything is going to evolve into something. who knows in addiction of cokane or heroin some strange soul will write world famous literature. It may be destined to happen so.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sangom Sir,

........ it is only to support my statement that the parents of girls also have tough time in dealing with their daughters. Of course no such parent will come forward and publicize his dilemma.

Greetings. My daughter is exactly like that. She is only 17; she seldom asks, but 'tells' me before doing something. It is hilarious indeed. But she is focused, so I am not too concerned. I won't condone girls demading the boy to severe relationship with his parents. It is just silly and judgemental. I wonder how these boys get on with such a relationship! (interestingly, in the few ICM marriages I know, caste brahmin girls did not make such ridiculous demands to the NB boys. But then again, those girls would not have demaned such ridiculous terms to caste brahmin boys either, had that been the case).

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,

"There is nothing right or wrong. Only thinking makes it so."

You are right to that extent. Our traditions, customs and beliefs are bound to affect our judgments- in addition to that "naalu peru"-whom no one has ever been able to pin point!

Two young people (well matched, really in love, with their heads screwed well on their shoulders and feet firmly on the ground) should NOT be separated just for the sake of cast ism.

But how many of the love affairs we see qualify to fall in this clause?

Many of them are born out of mere physical attraction, thrill, to desire punish their controlling parents, to find the easy way out of the orthodox life or a life of poverty etc.

Do Chinese have as many castes and sub castes as we Indians do? I have no idea!

"The world loves lovers." You are right in saying that despite whatever we may feel or say or do-love marriages will be the order of the future.

I heard that Asian brides (especially Chinese, Japanese and Koreans) are much in demand in U.S.A, as they are "supposed to be obedient and remain petite for life" ( as opposed to the American wives)??

But you will know better since you have been a N.R.I for over 3 decades!

I think, as sensible people, we have to accept the inevitable at some point or the other.

So let things evolve as they are destined to evolve!

with warm regards,
V.R.

Dear visa,

You are absolutely right. It is our (parent’s) insecurities and desires that play a great part in the varan hunting process for our children. I am only well aware of the excitement creeping in an average family, at the thought of yet another young person of marriageable age advancing slowly and surely towards the blessed event.

Here in the west, most parents, do not have such active roles, but many many parents I know (white and tambrams alike) keep a close watch on the latest object of affection. Admittedly criticising the paramour always backfires, but believe me, parents all over the world, do desire the best mate for their children.

A white girl we know, got involved with a tambram boy here. Here is a bright, extremely high scoring and pretty young girl, telling her parents that she was attracted towards the son of brown immigrants. Atleast I can imagine, they would have many trepiditions, even as I have to admit, the Canadian white society is much more accepting of strangers than what they were 35 years ago, and eons ahead of india.

Sure enough, the girl’s mother (the mother is the dominant parent, the father mild) invited the boy’s parents to their house and ‘vetted’ them out. It was done so smoothly and sophisticatedly, that the guests were not even aware that they were on the carpet, given a good run through for all areas of concern of a mother. Not sure what would have happened if the tambram parents failed their tests, but here they passed with flying colours, as proved from later interactions.

It is better to involve the families early, and get the parents part of the process. There may be resistance, but the chances of overcoming those, I believe stand highest if the tambram girls’ parents have a chance to vet out the boy and verify bonafides and credentials. Underneath the skin, all castes have the same aspirations.

Such efforts initated by tambram parents could perhaps make it possible to ensure that the tambram girl goes into a relationship with ‘heads screwed well on their shoulders and feet firmly on the ground’
As you put it. In my days, parents never talked about marriages or love to their children while in teen years. All of a sudden, it started with varans and horoscopes, and ended with a wedding. There was no prolonged discussion about compatibility and skillsets needed to find a good mate. It looks like this is still the case. And all that the girl hears is ‘no NB fellow into this household’. Which I think is insufficient’

No other country in the world has a caste system like india. Till the 1960s the british had a class system which was probably just as rigid as the caste. One could differentiate the English man’s class by his accent (just like tambrams have their own unique accents vs gounders). Because the class system was built on inherited privileges, with the rise & spread of egalitarian ideals, slowly the class system started to wither away.

Nowadays I am told, that intermarriage between the classes in England, does not raise any eyebrows. Indeed the new high classes are entrepreneur millionaires, whose money and influence is a magnet like attraction from the upper and lower classes.

Whatever it may be, love marriages have come not only to stay, but to increase. Knowing india’s strong caste feelings, love marriages within the caste, will be accepted even by the most ardent diehards in this forum. However there will exist a number of our girls who will desire to marry non Brahmin boy. It is best that through this forum, folks like me, provide some survival and preparation skills. After all, I too care for our tambram parents, and in my own way hope some of my viewpoints would be worth reading, if not absolute adherence.

thank you.

 

[senthil]

Btw, why cant those lovers chose a partner within their caste? Dont say, love doesnt know caste or creed.. Love is always b/w a boy over a good looking girl.. rest are arranged marriages LOL.. so when love can see fair and ugly, why cant it see community , ethics and customs?

 

[sangom]

... so when love can see fair and ugly, why cant it see community , ethics and customs?

Shri Senthil,

This is a point on which I agree with you. "Blind love" in my view is not mature love; it is infatuation. The choice can be left to the boy and girl if they will do it after some thinking, not just on the basis of whatever or whoever attracts them.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,

Thank you for your long mail.

I think if tambram parents start accepting love marriages, may be their children will find suitable partners in our own group.

May be we are pushing them towards NB boys and girls, by rigidly opposing love marriages.

I used the following expression to specify that they are not swept off their feet by the gushing love and they are not heels over head in love.

Two young people (well matched, really in love, with their heads screwed well on their shoulders and feet firmly on the ground) should NOT be separated just for the sake of cast ism.

It is time to rethink!

with warm regards,
V.R.

 

[hoover]

respected Ramaniji,
I second your openion. I will happily wellcome any marriage of any kind within Brahmin community. ( the word brahmin means brahmin; of any subgroup and language)

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. Hoover,

I already told you and every one that
"United we stand and divided we fall!"

Relationships are like sand placed on our palm. If we let it be, all the sand stays put. But try to squeeze it and most of the sand escapes from the palm.

Tighter the control, greater the thrill of defying/disobeying/disowning /ditching etc.

Instead of making much of the differences, we should emphasize on the similarities within the various section of Brahmin community.

So when the youngsters like you and Senthil and the elders like me and many others in this forum begin to see eye to eye, most of these problems can be sorted out amicably and peacefully ( without turning into pen-fiends.)

with best wishes,
V.R.

 

[Nara]

....Two young people (well matched, really in love, with their heads screwed well on their shoulders and feet firmly on the ground) should NOT be separated just for the sake of cast ism.

Hello Mrs. VR, the difficulty with the above is there is no way this principle can be put into practice to the satisfaction of all concerned. When people are in love, nothing else will matter. It seems the great lovers of history that we celebrate, the likes of Ambikapati/Amaravati, Salim/Anarkali, Paris/Helen, and many more, did not have their heads screwed well and neither were their feet firmly on the ground.

Love is not something that people get into after filling out a compatibility questionnaire and ascertaining the extent of some ten-fold matching. Love just happens, and when it happens you start floating -- if your feet are still on the ground, then it is not love. When it happens, a million star-bursts occur every second in your head -- if not it is not love.

I know what you will say, look at all the celebrated love cases, they all ended in tragedy. Yes that is true, but it did not have to be that way. All the cases that ended in tragedy did so because of opposition, not because of their love. With a little show of support from the involved parents, each of these cases would have passed into history without anybody taking note.

So, if it happens, let us not turn the love stories of our younguns into tragedies. They may not be well matched according to standards we hold dear. But, if truly in love, he/she is probably not amenable to our arguments. The more we argue the more rigid they are likely to get.

A strict regimen of "our" culture, engagement when they are in teens, etc., are very unlikely to be effective and could very well be counterproductive. A better approach is to cultivate confidence in the young minds, a confidence that makes them believe that you will support them no matter what. This is what will offer protection to our children. This task is a life long effort. It must start even before they start to think for themselves. If you wait until that time, it is already too late. Our children will love us for it. The road to true happiness is paved with mutual love and confidence.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

so ruefully true nara. love at the start, is all firecrackers and blazing stars, to be punctuated with dreamy silences. i have three youngsters in the house, and each time they go through this process, i wonder and wonder, how and why i missed out this crazyness of life.

i would like to go a little beyond the starstruck passion. in my opinion, at some point, ultimately the head comes into play, and starts taunting the heart. what may seem as a glamourous greta garbo initially, soon metamorphs into the reality of adjusting. a relationship is a give and take, and one part can give only SO much, before the system demands a take.

so after a few months, comes the period of realization and the understanding of compatibility or not. the western society is indifferent enough that loves, break ups, loves lost are all daily patterns of the mosaic, private and not within the purview or judgement of the society.

i suspect this still may not be so in india. once you fall in love, that's it. it is reflected in our movies. fall in love and immediately marry before getting to verify your compatibility. no backing out. our movies have to advance one more step

it is no better in arranged marriages of today. our children grow up, even in india, so removed from their families mentally, i suspect, that no parent really 'knows' his son or daughter from the teens onwards. it is a cruel shock imposed particularly on girls, a man, even worse a family - mil & fil. just imagine the shock, to move from a warm home, to a house full of strangers, with a new unknown husband and older folks all around them without giving them a chance of privacy. a built in structural cruelty biased against the woman.

many of these mothers in law, had their own thani kudithanam, mostly due to accident of marrying a boy who sought a carrier outside of the village and older brothers to support the parent. in our culture, especially in these days of premium children, the relationship between the mother/son is so narrowly bordering of overwhelming and possessive love, that there is no place for another female in the house. so, is it surprising that intelligent tambram girls have trepeditions about moving into households with built in laws.

no matter how liberal they consider they are, the dil becomes a de facto maid. such is my observation over 50 knowing years of our culture. mercifully times are changing. for the better. i can hear the anguishes of the traditionalists. i have sympathies for them, and my heart breaks for them. the sooner they accept the realities of now, the better to avoid disappointments and the ensuing bitterness.

here is a dose of reality: the chettiars of toronto are a small community of about 100 families equally divided betwen those that arrived in the 1980s or earlier, and the new comers. they have a common community club. the early arrivers, their kids, many of them have married out of caste, including my physio therapist who married a punjabi girl.

the newcomers with young families objected to the presence of the out of caste spouses and when they found their objections going no where, walked out, and formed their own club.

my view is, that my own counterparts were like those newcomers about 25 years ago; twenty or so years later, when th newcomers' children express for a desire out of caste, they reluctantly and later acceptingly change. only when it affects their own children people revise their values. for after, are not children are the most precious gift that we have. n'est pas?

while they would want to date a chinese, white or black, they would end up with a punjabi or gujarati, which might not be so bad after all.

my only query, is why should parents have to wait so long for wisdom to strike them?

thank you sir.

 

[Nara]

I already told you and every one that
"United we stand and divided we fall!"
[....]
Instead of making much of the differences, we should emphasize on the similarities within the various section of Brahmin community.

Dear Mrs. VR, I second your sentiments, united we stand, divided we fall, don't make much of our differences, emphasize the similarities. I am with you all the way, only that I would like the community to be defined as expansively as possible, never restricted to a sliver of humanity called Brahmins.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....i suspect this still may not be so in india. once you fall in love, that's it.

Yes my friend, this is what our generation is stuck on. Our tradition, as if it stayed the same for ever, our values, as if they stayed the same for ever, our morals, as if morality is dependent on who you sleep with or how many you sleep, is nothing so sacrosanct. We must let love triumph all else, love for fellow humans, or at least for our own children.

This reverence to tradition in our generation is only a new found imperative. How many in our generation live up to the standards our parents and grandparents set, whatever one may thing of those standards? My father sneaked out one day and got his shikai cut off. I sneaked out one day and had coffee with my would-be with her brother as a chaperone. The next generation is taking it a little farther, no more than what we or our parents did. I bet our grandparents would have conversed with with each other about cutting of shikai or meeting with a would be, as follows,

"எப்படி வேண்டுமானாலும் வாழலாம் என்பது
மிருகங்களின் வாழ்க்கை சித்தாந்தம்.

இப்படித்தான் வாழவேண்டும் என்பது தான்
மனிதர்களின் சித்தாந்தமாக இருக்க வேண்டும். " -- by Mrs. V.R.
​

For all the hand wringing of conservatives. the arch of history will always bend towards more equality and justice, not less. We see it everyday. Take notice folks.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Nara Ji,

You said:

For all the hand wringing of conservatives. the arch of history will always bend towards more equality and justice, not less. We see it everyday. Take notice folks.

I tried not to enter the discussions here, for fear of redundancy on my part, but, since you have called me in another thread as 'arch conservative', let me please respond.

My stance has always been and is that time will march forward, making the necessary changes in any culture over time to make folks adapt. If they do not change, then time has no mercy. Such is the dilemma facing many cultures today, including our own.

Progressiveness and Conservatism exist, because they are supported by varying natures of people - some are adventurous, and some are not. As long as one's behavior does not affect others' well being, they have every right to practice what they want on this earth. I see no problems with it.

This is where, I think you and I differ. There is no need to speed up the process at the discomfort of where folks are. Let them be. This is why, any 'revolution' does not make sense to me.

By the way, I married outside of my religion and ethnicity the first time. I proposed after two weeks of meeting her and she accepted! Unfortunately, I lost her after 27 years of blissful companionship. And then I was lucky enough to fall in love again with a lady from my own community and again I proposed in short order and she accepted! This marriage is going great for the last 8 years.

I know I am very lucky both times and just happened to meet two very unique ladies who have brought joy into my life. But then unusual things have happened in my life. I would not recommend this to others - just because it was successful for me.

For those folks in our community who are conservative - please study other ethnic minorities with the same issue around the world - Jews, Parsis, etc., and think about various ways to get your children meet other children from our community in social settings. If you are not going to do this, then, please do not be shocked and complain when your offspring shows up one day with a boy/girl friend from a different community at your door. Times, they are changing.

Regards,
KRS

 

[hoover]

shri KRS sir,
you are almost correct in the last para.
I want to add one more point here, it is not theisis or anti - theisis which wins the space and time. It is always synthesis. and I think the percievable synthesis here and that is inter marriages among brahmin community itself regardless of language, subgroup, eating habits. one aspect of this synthesis is also economic liberal attitude; in coming years we may see girls working and earning in millions and their husbands doing freelance activities in brahmin community.

 

[Raji Ram]

Sir,

Please go through my kavithai captioned ஒரு கலிகாலக் கல்யாணம் in எண்ண அலைகள் under literature section of this forum. May be you will get some interesting questions to answer!

Thanks,
Raji Ram

 

[hoover]

shri Raji Ram sir,
I do no understand tamil, can you please give brief summery of your poem in english.

 

[Raji Ram]

Oh God!

After discussing for nearly hundred pages, will anyone be able to make Brahmin girls and boys love in their own cast?

All parents accept the love marriage of their son / daughter, whether right or wrong, if not immediately, at least after the arrival of a grand child.... So, none of us can change the world!

உலகம் உய்ய வேண்டும்,
ராஜி ராம்

 

[Raji Ram]

shri Raji Ram sir,
I do no understand tamil, can you please give brief summery of your poem in english.

Very difficult task! Better you get the help of any of your friends who can read and translate the poem for you, Sir!

Mrs. Raji Ram (not Sir!)

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri hoover Ji.
I read your posting several times, but, sorry sir, I do not understand what you are trying to convey. Please elaborate on 'freelance activities' and about 'theisis' and 'synthesis'. I am a simpleton, and your post went over my head.

Regards,
KRS

shri KRS sir,
you are almost correct in the last para.
I want to add one more point here, it is not theisis or anti - theisis which wins the space and time. It is always synthesis. and I think the percievable synthesis here and that is inter marriages among brahmin community itself regardless of language, subgroup, eating habits. one aspect of this synthesis is also economic liberal attitude; in coming years we may see girls working and earning in millions and their husbands doing freelance activities in brahmin community.

 

[hoover]

sri KRS sir,
meaning of freelance activty may vary from amateur artist to social worker, politics, investigative jouranlism, writers etc. i.e. not a regular professional.
I am not so learned to analyse but may try. It is your modesty though to call yourself simpleton.
Thesis, antithesis, synthesis are terms orginated from philosophy of G.W.F. Hegel. both right wing nazis and left wing communist used those for analysing contemporary situations in world scenario. esp. Karl Marks used it in his conceptual proposition of communism.
Thisis is idea,concept of a contemporary situation or 'just now these days'
anti thesis is the idea,situation which negets or criticizes the contmporary situation or thesis and
Synthesis is the product of combination of the thesis and antitheisis after successful negation, distruction of each other.
(for current situation the thesis and antithesi are interchangabel but synthesis will remain same)
In our current situation
theisis: there are marriages, should be, will be among different caste.
anti thisis: no, there should be barriers as dictated by our dharma and those must be rigidly defende.
Synthesys: we accept that some steps ahead should be taken from theisis but its extremist libralism and rejection of anciant system are unacceptable.
yes we also accept that as great sages and religious scriptures have said there may be truth in that but rigidity is unacceptable and complex rituals and steadfast notions of subcaste etc etc. are beyond contemporary logic.
so best way is marrying among brahmin of any language, subcaste, region, eating habits. less emphasis of particular rituals and steps like kundali etc.etc.
respected Mrs. Raji Ram,
no, men of propriety always change the world, with devine grace upon them. no one would have said it in 1920s that great british empire will get diluted and India will be free form British.
There was no major cause why Japan attacked US in WW II turning the result of war.
those at war are now friends of each other. and then friends are enemies.
jews face persecution from german i.e. caucasoid. but helped caucasoid mejority US. and atom bombs made by Jewish scientists used not against their archenemies but the Japan. It is beyong ones wits. so we should not be passimistic.
love in mejority of situations emerges from vicinity. close contact. so we should increse interaction among our young community members.
regarding problem of tamil, esp. for children of servicemen who spend their 20 or more year in other states it is difficult to learn tamil esp. script.